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Old 05-11-2010, 03:05 PM   #1
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still need advice for backyard sub panel


Hi,
I would like to run a sub panel at opposite end of bsmnt to run 2-3 circuits for backyard. 1 for pool pump(1hp) and heater. 1 for 3-4 outlets and 4 lamp posts. What gauge wire from main to sub 50' - 60'? I bought a small 70 amp 2 circuit, (4 tandem) panel from sq D. It has 2 lugs and 2 slots for single breakers o r two tandem. How can I do this properly? have experience with wiring but need some advice. If anyone can help, it would be great.

Thank You

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Old 05-11-2010, 04:50 PM   #2
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Need more info on what you plan to connect to the new panel! A heater for the pool is usually a 40 or 50-amp 240-volt circuit alone.

Most pump motors will operate on either 120-volt or 240-volt and the amperage varies depending on how you want to connect it.

If both these items are 240-volt you're already out of space in the panel. But if you connect your pump to 120-volt you will then have 1 space left in the panel for your outlets and lamp posts.

What I need from you is the amps of the heater. If you have you already have the heater what I wants is the "minimum circuit ampacity" from the nameplate.

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Old 05-11-2010, 10:24 PM   #3
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Hi,
Sorry,should have been more specific. The pump is a 1hp and wired for 120v, the heater is natural gas wired to same 120 circuit as pump. The heater uses the 120v which steps down to 24v to power small digital control panel, gas valve and ignitor. I guess kind of of like your basic gas oven, I can't imagine them using a lot of current.
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Old 05-12-2010, 07:27 AM   #4
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Pump 1 HP = 746 watts (746/120=6.22 amps) 1 - 20-amp circuit includes heater control panel.
Lamp posts I am using 100-watts per post for calculating 4 X 100 watts = 400 watts (400/120=3.33 amps)
Outlets 4 X 180 watts = 720 watts (720/120=6.0 amps)

*Deleted* See my post below!
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Old 05-12-2010, 08:56 AM   #5
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My 1.5 hp pool pump is rated at 18.6a MAx @120v
So check the name plate on the pump & allow some extra power in case a new pump takes more

I would bring the small 70a panel back
Pick up a 100a main breaker 20 circuit panel ~$55 at HD w/4 20a breakers
Feed it with 60a as sparks1up stated
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Old 05-12-2010, 09:07 AM   #6
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Hi Sparks1up,


I am going with your advice on th 60 amp, 6/3 with ground setup. What type breaker should I use at main panel? Do I need to ground/bond sub panel even though both panels are in my bsmnt, just at opposite ends? My main service is 200 amps and has 2 spares but, I need to move some breakers so that I can get the proper 2 phases that I need to sub panel. There is an existing sub panel for an addition above garage which is fed by a 100 amp breaker. Sorry I am going on and on but I want to give as much info as possible to make sure I am not in over my head. Based on this info, am I overloading the main panel? By the way, I already have a 20 amp, 12/2 with gnd for my pool which is what want to upgrade. So I have 3 slots in main to play with. One last thing in regards to pool equipment, how do I bond pump and heater? Can I use an 8ft gnd rod near equipment? And right now I have 20 amp GFCI breaker for my pool equipment, in adition to that, do I need use GFCI outlets? I know for the outlets in the yard to use them in weather proof enclosure. Thank you so much for your help thus far. So based on all the info how would you suggest for me to go about this safely and properly.

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Old 05-12-2010, 11:12 AM   #7
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Old 05-12-2010, 11:47 AM   #8
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Thanks Spark and Dave for the great input! Do you have any advice on my last post, I added quite a few more questions.


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Old 05-12-2010, 12:20 PM   #9
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Main breaker would be a 60a 240v breaker

On a sub-panel the grounds & neutrals are on seperate bars
The neutral bar must not be grounded to the case
1 neutral under each screw
If your panel is rated for it you can put 2 grounds same size under same screw

GFCI required for pool power
One GFCI outlet required within 6-20' (10'?) pool, but no closer then 6'
All of my outlets in the pool enclosure are GFCI - no matter their distance from the pool

I have 3 subs off my Main panel
Load calc will tell you if you are overloading your panel
BUT, if your electric bill isn't like $1k plus you should be OK
My highest bill has been $650 w/electric stove, dryer, HW & big Christmas display

You want to upgrade the 12-2 20a to the pool ?
Not sure what you mean....you need to replace the wire ?
Feed from the new sub ?
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Old 05-12-2010, 01:11 PM   #10
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Wait a minute! We have a problem here. Any panel feeding pool equipment has to have a #6 bond from the main service. A 6-3 romex with ground only has a #10 ground and the panel you are feeding from is NOT the main service!

The pool light which you didnt mention but may exist has to have an unspliced #12 insulated grounding conductor from the panel to the pool light junction box!

Also, you cannot bond your pool equipment by driving a ground rod! That just grounds the equipment and beings as the equipment is grounded via the ground wire from the panel you can have a difference in potential and actually create a flow of electricity between the two points of ground.

The purpose of bonding is to create a common bonding grid so there is no difference in potential between all the metal parts of the pool system and surrounding metal objects like steel columns, window and door frames, pool light niche, pool ladder & rail and the steel in the concrete deck and any metal objects not separated by a permanent barrier or within a specific distance from the inside edge of the pool. I think it is 6-7' but I would have to look it up to be sure in Article 680 of the NEC.

The pool equipment (pump) CANNOT be fed with romex because it has to have an insulted #12 ground!

There is more to this job than meets the eye and I am going to delete my responses above because I was incorrect and I don't want anyone else to follow that example!
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Old 05-12-2010, 03:17 PM   #11
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Hi,

Sparks1 sorry, but I perhaps didn't explain myself clearly. Anyway, allow me to start for scratch if you may please. When we bought the house the pool was there already. There was only one 20 amp circuit for backyard/pool. It is all romex all the way to pump and one outlet. The gas pool heater we added and installer said it was ok to wire in pump circuit being that it drew very little current. I noticed pump housing isn,t grounded. I didn't know what is code for that. I would like to bring everything up to code and add some extra circuits so I can add 3-4 outlets around yard as well as 3-4 lamp posts.
My main panel is on opposite end of house and I wanted to add a small panel closer to the backyard to wire up those circuits. My pump is 1hp 120v, heater is also 120v no heavy load just small circuit board and digital controller. I would like to know what supplies I would need to do this properly and to code. Most important is proper ground/bond of pump/heater.

thanks for your patience.

anthonyr

Last edited by anthonyr; 05-13-2010 at 08:47 AM. Reason: title change
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Old 05-12-2010, 04:07 PM   #12
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680.21 does indicate the ground must be insulated & the pool pump must be fed by conduit
So if you want to meet todays code you need to run conduit out to the pool outlets

Bonding grid now required for all metal parts around a pool

I do not know of the requirement for the #6 ground going to the sub ??
If the sub was just for the pool that may be required
But my pool cabana sub has a #8 ground (680.25?), #6 was not required
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Old 05-13-2010, 05:43 PM   #13
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Hi,

I could use advice on this project before I begin. I want to upgrade backyard wiring. As of right now, there is a 1hp 120v pool pump, 120v gas heater and 1 outlet. All powered by a 20 amp GFCI and 12/2 with gnd outdoor romex. I bought the house in this way and I don't think this is right. I would like to bring this up to code and add some more outlets (3) and lamp posts (3). I am concerned about proper grounding. My main panel is in bsmnt on opposite side. It is 200 amps SD homeline 30/40. I have two spare slots. There is a sub panel feeding addition above garage protected by 100 amp breaker at main. I am thinking of installing a second sub panel at opposite end of bsmnt near backyard to bring maybe 4 circuits to cover power needs of backyard. I live in NJ and I want to do this correctly and to code.
PS I hope I didn't upset Sparks1Up with my last posts.


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Old 05-13-2010, 06:10 PM   #14
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Please keep only 1 thread going on this issue
That way we don't have to go over everything again
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Old 05-13-2010, 11:57 PM   #15
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So from main can I use the existing slot feeding backyard along with another opposite phase slot to feed sub panel? May have to reconfig a bit to get the 240v to sub. Can I use 6/3 with ground from main to sub and bond panels with insulated #6 ground wire. Is there a specific type wire I need? What type wire can I use for pool pump and heater? And must the coduit be metal or pvc? I know I have to run insulated #12 ground to pump and heater.

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