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Old 08-22-2008, 09:53 PM   #16
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split receptacle for fridge & microwave?


Question SD. You mention using a listed handle tie which seems like a good idea, but in the NEC 2104B it doesn't specify a listed handle. Have you found inspectors to demand this? Several times I have just used some #12 and not gotten red tagged. This is a genuine question on my part, not an argument. Of course the 2 pole GFCI is already bonded.

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Old 08-22-2008, 10:54 PM   #17
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I have had several inspectors require a two pole breaker for a network on a duplex outlet, (usually being a 15A dish/disp duplex under a sink). Although most inspectors around here don't require it.
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Old 08-22-2008, 11:29 PM   #18
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split receptacle for fridge & microwave?


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Originally Posted by terryfitz View Post
Question SD. You mention using a listed handle tie which seems like a good idea, but in the NEC 2104B it doesn't specify a listed handle. Have you found inspectors to demand this? Several times I have just used some #12 and not gotten red tagged. This is a genuine question on my part, not an argument. Of course the 2 pole GFCI is already bonded.
It's a good question Terry. First, I should have said 'identified' and not 'listed'. My bad. I do have one inspector that is a 'listed' fanatic, I guess it just stuck in my head today...sorry. In general the inspects here do require us to use correct handle ties or a brkr with a factory made tie, pin, internal etc. We can't slip the nail or wire pass them....but we do get a laugh sometimes when we ask the 'newbie' put a nail in to make a 2 pole. We know the inspect will catch it.

In reference to your mention of 210.4(B)...we asked an inspect once and his logic was 240.20(B)(1) which states '...with or without identified handle ties...' so he says 'if you have to tie them together, you have to use a tie identified for the purpose'. Then he laughed and pulled the nail out. (It wasn't my job...I just happen to be there dropping material...but I laughed too)
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Old 08-23-2008, 12:21 PM   #19
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split receptacle for fridge & microwave?


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Sorry to correct you Stubbie, but the refrigerator can, and I think should be on a separate circuit. NEC 210.52B1x2 Personally, I have always done it this way since a GFCI tripping a refridge wouldn't be known until someone opened the door or started to smell something.
I have already submitted the following appeal to the CMP for the next code cycle:

When a refrigerator shall be used to chill beer and other alcoholic beverages, it shall be wired directly to the nearest service point in concrete encased RGS conduit with the circuit being protected solely by the governing utility's primary-side protective devices. Circuit conductors shall be 350kcmil or greater to avoid any potential voltage drop that may compromise the ability of the compressor to maintain the beverages at optimal temperature. No other devices shall be allowed to share this outlet. A SDS will be required to maintain operation of the refrigerator in the event of a loss of utility supply and will be designed to provide a minimum of 365 days power delivery.

So far, some have accused me of being a bit generous with the 365-day requirement. I has been argued (quite compellingly, I may add) that if the power was lost for any non-trivial amount of time, the HO would likely have nothing to do which would result in him/her/they drinking all of the alcoholic beverages within 6 hours after which the electric supply would be needless. I am willing to compromise with an 8 hour requirement which would allow the HO's time to eat all of the refrigerated non-beverage items following consumption of the beverages. Perhaps a FPN recommending that the HO maintain an emergency supply of dry snack foods for such a reason should be added?
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Old 08-23-2008, 12:32 PM   #20
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Thanks Pete. I agree with you. If I read Stubbie correctly, he said that the fridge HAD to be on the GFCI circuit which it doesn't. If I misread, I'm sorry.
Only if the fridge circuit shares counter top receptacles where GFCI protection is required. So in some instances the fridge must be on a GFCI. Not the best set up either.
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Old 08-23-2008, 12:44 PM   #21
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Only if the fridge circuit shares counter top receptacles where GFCI protection is required. So in some instances the fridge must be on a GFCI.
Absolutely not JV. There is NO instance where the fridge must be on a GFI.
It's not the circuit that must be protected, it's the receptacles serving counter spaces.
Unless of course it is a commercial kitchen.
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Old 08-23-2008, 12:56 PM   #22
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split receptacle for fridge & microwave?


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You are correct.

The standard rule of thumb for motor devices, when sizing an emergency power generator, is that all such electrical circuits be considered to draw 3 times their normal current on start up.

Example: Your 5 amp fridge would draw @ 15 amps. So were the microwave on the circuit total is 27 amps, which is not good.

So unless you want to constantly manage the operation of the fridge it would be best to keep the m/w off any motorized outlet

Good luck with it.

Dave
Yes but you are forgetting the fact that it is a MWBC that he is talking about he will have 20 amps avalable on BOTH legs of the breaker. And the neutral will only carry the unbalanced current.
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Old 08-23-2008, 02:14 PM   #23
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split receptacle for fridge & microwave?


I think a lot of the problem understanding the refrigerator circuit lies in the way the NEC lays out and explains the code for the small appliance circuits. For instance, if you carefully read 210.52B and C you would have no clue that the circuits supplying the countertops have to be GFCI. You have to go over to 552.41 to find that out. Another thing is that it reads you need two or more 20 ampere small-appliance circuits for the "kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area." With that in mind, it sounds like two circuits could take care of the whole shooting match. One circuit for the countertops; one for the rest of the place. Not so. In 510.11B3, it says that two circuits have to be provided for the countertops (GFCI although it doesn't SAY it there), and that these two circuits can provide power to the other areas as well. Anyway, the point is that you have to be a Philadelphia lawyer to read some of this stuff. Anybody want to expand on this?
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Old 08-23-2008, 04:12 PM   #24
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split receptacle for fridge & microwave?


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I think a lot of the problem understanding the refrigerator circuit lies in the way the NEC lays out and explains the code for the small appliance circuits. For instance, if you carefully read 210.52B and C you would have no clue that the circuits supplying the countertops have to be GFCI.
Because 210.52 is required receptacles. Then they refer you to other sections of the code for more details about these required receptacles.


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You have to go over to 552.41 to find that out.
Ummm, no, you go to 210.8.
552 is Park Trailers.


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Another thing is that it reads you need two or more 20 ampere small-appliance circuits for the "kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area." With that in mind, it sounds like two circuits could take care of the whole shooting match.
Yup. This is true as the code minimum. Two S-A circuit for the receptacles in ALL those rooms, including the fridge.


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One circuit for the countertops; one for the rest of the place.
NO, it does not say that at all.


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Not so. In 510.11B3, it says that two circuits have to be provided for the countertops (GFCI although it doesn't SAY it there), and that these two circuits can provide power to the other areas as well.
I have no idea where you are going with this one. The section you are referring to is 210.11(C)(1), and that refers you to 210.52.

Yes, it is kind of complicated, but it is what we have to deal with. Learn to decipher the code or remain a helper for the rest of your time in the trade.
Once you get used to reading it it's not all that hard.

(B) Small Appliances
(1) Receptacle Outlets Served
In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.



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Old 08-23-2008, 09:19 PM   #25
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split receptacle for fridge & microwave?


Big Jim...

Consider adding this line after the SDS requirement...

In addition to the required SDS back-up unit, a supplemental back-up refrigerator shall also be required, in case of primary refrigerator failure. This SBUR shall be placed directly next to the main refrigerator unit, shall have an interior capacity capable of an 8 hour supply of such forementioned beverages, and used for no other purpose. This SBUR will be allowed to be plugged in the same receptacle as the main refrigerator unit, or on it's own individual branch circuit, provided a suitable transfer switching means to the main refrigerators circuit is also provided.

Exception: The homeowner will not be required to maintain an emergency supply of dry snack foods if the homeowner's property is located within 3 feet of a 24 hour convenience store or the like.
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Old 08-24-2008, 03:28 AM   #26
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Big Jim...

Consider adding this line after the SDS requirement...

In addition to the required SDS back-up unit, a supplemental back-up refrigerator shall also be required, in case of primary refrigerator failure. This SBUR shall be placed directly next to the main refrigerator unit, shall have an interior capacity capable of an 8 hour supply of such forementioned beverages, and used for no other purpose. This SBUR will be allowed to be plugged in the same receptacle as the main refrigerator unit, or on it's own individual branch circuit, provided a suitable transfer switching means to the main refrigerators circuit is also provided.

Exception: The homeowner will not be required to maintain an emergency supply of dry snack foods if the homeowner's property is located within 3 feet of a 24 hour convenience store or the like.
I agree but the snack food thing was a FPN, not an exception!
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Old 08-24-2008, 11:05 AM   #27
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Ok...make it a FPN....Lol !!

I'm still LMAO from your original suggestion

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