Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Electrical

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 06-10-2009, 08:27 PM   #1
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 3
Share |
Default

Splicing Wires in Electrical Breaker Panel


I want to add an exterior motion sensor light to an exterior motion sensor light circuit at the electrical breaker box.

My proposal is since:

1) I have material to make it to the new light from the breaker box and not further.
2) I can't double tap on the 15A GFCI circuit breaker that serves the circuit.
3) A junction box somewhere else is not really an option.
4) I am running out of breaker spaces in the breaker box.
5) I have more than enough area/volume in the breaker panel.

to run a 14-2 wire from the new light to the 15A breaker. The plan would be to splice the black wires together using an appropriate wire nut to a black pigtail and land the pigtail on the appropriate location on the GFCI. In turn, I would do the same thing with the white wires and land the white pigtail on the appropriate location on the GFCI. All derating of the NM-B cable and breaker is done. Would this meet code?

airdaleairdale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2009, 08:53 PM   #2
Licensed Electrician
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 10
Default

Splicing Wires in Electrical Breaker Panel


So what you are saying is you have a GFCI Breaker and you wish to make pigtails in the panel?

tonyf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2009, 08:56 PM   #3
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 3
Default

Splicing Wires in Electrical Breaker Panel


Yes I do.
airdaleairdale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2009, 09:00 PM   #4
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: South of Boston, MA
Posts: 17,248
Default

Splicing Wires in Electrical Breaker Panel


You can pigtail in the panel
That is allowed by code
Scuba_Dave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2009, 09:01 PM   #5
Licensed Electrician
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 10
Default

Splicing Wires in Electrical Breaker Panel


although this is done, it IS a CODE violation.
tonyf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2009, 09:07 PM   #6
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: South of Boston, MA
Posts: 17,248
Default

Splicing Wires in Electrical Breaker Panel


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyf View Post
although this is done, it IS a CODE violation.
and the specific NEC code violation is ??

Read thru this prior thread - same thing

wires too short in panel / loadcenter

Last edited by Scuba_Dave; 06-10-2009 at 09:09 PM.
Scuba_Dave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2009, 09:13 PM   #7
Licensed Electrician
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 10
Default

Splicing Wires in Electrical Breaker Panel


Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave View Post
and the specific NEC code violation is ??

Read thru this prior thread - same thing

wires too short in panel / loadcenter
I assumed he was canadian, so would be be CSA code violation. Also, even though NEC permits, I find it very unsafe. The panel is NOT a junction box
tonyf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2009, 09:14 PM   #8
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: South of Boston, MA
Posts: 17,248
Default

Splicing Wires in Electrical Breaker Panel


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyf View Post
I assumed he was canadian, so would be be CSA code violation. Also, even though NEC permits, I find it very unsafe. The panel is NOT a junction box
You said it was a Code violation
Wire splices/pigtails are not unsafe, they are used all the time day in day out
Scuba_Dave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2009, 09:39 PM   #9
Licensed Electrical Cont.
 
Speedy Petey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NY State
Posts: 6,784
Default

Splicing Wires in Electrical Breaker Panel


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyf View Post
Also, even though NEC permits, I find it very unsafe.
I am extremely curious as to why you consider it "very unsafe". Especially since it is expressly allowed by code.
__________________
Sometimes I feel like if I answer any more questions it is like someone trying to climb over a fence to jump off a bridge and me giving them a boost.
Answers based on the 2008 & 2011 NEC.
Speedy Petey is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2009, 09:58 PM   #10
Licensed Electrician
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 10
Smile

Splicing Wires in Electrical Breaker Panel


Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
I am extremely curious as to why you consider it "very unsafe". Especially since it is expressly allowed by code.
One more time for the Americans. It is a CSA (CEC) code violation, using the electrical panel as a junction box is NOT permitted. We are a bit safer in Canada, as in a panel, you have live parts (all breaker termination points for one), were as in a junction box, the box is bonded and should the wire nut become loose, it trips the breaker AS the JB is BONDED. Should your wire nut come off in the panel, the potential is there for the conductors to come in contact with any number of live points. I wil not answer any more posts on this, as this is a CSA (CEC) code violation, NOT an NEC code. CLEAR ENOUGH?
tonyf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2009, 10:15 PM   #11
Licensed Electrical Cont.
 
Speedy Petey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NY State
Posts: 6,784
Default

Splicing Wires in Electrical Breaker Panel


Yeah, we get it. You are in Canada, even though your profile is empty.

That is why I specifically quoted your sentence. It IS allowed by code in the US. And it is NOT at all unsafe. Your logic could be applied to any number of different scenarios. In fact, I consider it safer since you know for sure that a panel will be bonded.

Sorry, I don't buy your logic at ALL. I actually think you are trying to convince us (and yourself) that it is somehow safer simply to justify the fact that it is a code violation according to the CEC.

The NEC and the CEC are quite similar, but the CEC has some dumb codes. Like only 20A receptacles on 20A circuits.
Don't get all bothered that I say this. The NEC has it's share of dumb codes as well.
__________________
Sometimes I feel like if I answer any more questions it is like someone trying to climb over a fence to jump off a bridge and me giving them a boost.
Answers based on the 2008 & 2011 NEC.
Speedy Petey is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2009, 10:33 PM   #12
My License Ain't 4 Sale..
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Atlanta, Ga/Hamilton, Al
Posts: 1,813
Default

Splicing Wires in Electrical Breaker Panel


So what does a Canadian do when he changes out a panel and some of the wires are too short? A bunch of j-boxes?

By the way tonyf, you didn't simply say it was a CEC violation, you said it was "very unsafe". Sometimes, they are not synonymous. I'm curious as to why you consider it such. I know you won't answer, because you have made up your mind, but I'm curious.
InPhase277 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2009, 10:48 PM   #13
Licensed Electrician
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 10
Default

Splicing Wires in Electrical Breaker Panel


Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
Yeah, we get it. You are in Canada, even though your profile is empty.

That is why I specifically quoted your sentence. It IS allowed by code in the US. And it is NOT at all unsafe. Your logic could be applied to any number of different scenarios. In fact, I consider it safer since you know for sure that a panel will be bonded.

Sorry, I don't buy your logic at ALL. I actually think you are trying to convince us (and yourself) that it is somehow safer simply to justify the fact that it is a code violation according to the CEC.

The NEC and the CEC are quite similar, but the CEC has some dumb codes. Like only 20A receptacles on 20A circuits.
Don't get all bothered that I say this. The NEC has it's share of dumb codes as well.
There is no point in arguing, but look at this senario. We all have seen this. Not that it has ever happend to you, but to the average homeowner who really has no business being in the panel, as many HOME owners dont make good connections, etc. There are lots of wires in the panel, so you have a tough time putting the cover on.
The wire nut comes off one of the neutral wires you have extended. With the jostling of the wires, that neutral accidently finds it way to a hot point in the panel. You now have a 240 volt circuit. Yes, it would be rare to happen, but for this reason making connections in a panel is a bad idea. NEC allows it, CSA does not.

Last edited by tonyf; 06-10-2009 at 10:49 PM. Reason: wrong word
tonyf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2009, 11:02 PM   #14
Licensed Electrical Cont.
 
Speedy Petey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NY State
Posts: 6,784
Default

Splicing Wires in Electrical Breaker Panel


Tony, this is far from an argument. it is a decent discussion so far.

I see your point, but your "what if..." scenarios could be used in many different settings or situations. I think we just fail to see how this is any more unsafe than 100 other things.
__________________
Sometimes I feel like if I answer any more questions it is like someone trying to climb over a fence to jump off a bridge and me giving them a boost.
Answers based on the 2008 & 2011 NEC.
Speedy Petey is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2009, 07:20 AM   #15
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: South of Boston, MA
Posts: 17,248
Default

Splicing Wires in Electrical Breaker Panel


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyf View Post
I assumed he was canadian, so would be be CSA code violation. Also, even though NEC permits, I find it very unsafe. The panel is NOT a junction box
Why would you assume he is Canadian?
Is the name "airdale" Canadian or is there a Town or location called that in Canada?
Just curious

Scuba_Dave is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Old House Rewire finnimus Electrical 15 05-13-2011 10:39 PM
Subpanel help? Killertea08 Electrical 16 09-30-2008 09:40 AM
Help with electrical sub panel chrismc77 Electrical 6 08-12-2007 02:36 PM
breaker panel Ehren51 Electrical 1 01-28-2004 07:43 PM




Top of Page | View New Posts

Copyright © 2003-2014 Escalate Media. All Rights Reserved.