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-   -   Splicing Wires in Electrical Breaker Panel (http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/splicing-wires-electrical-breaker-panel-46381/)

airdaleairdale 06-10-2009 09:27 PM

Splicing Wires in Electrical Breaker Panel
 
I want to add an exterior motion sensor light to an exterior motion sensor light circuit at the electrical breaker box.

My proposal is since:

1) I have material to make it to the new light from the breaker box and not further.
2) I can't double tap on the 15A GFCI circuit breaker that serves the circuit.
3) A junction box somewhere else is not really an option.
4) I am running out of breaker spaces in the breaker box.
5) I have more than enough area/volume in the breaker panel.

to run a 14-2 wire from the new light to the 15A breaker. The plan would be to splice the black wires together using an appropriate wire nut to a black pigtail and land the pigtail on the appropriate location on the GFCI. In turn, I would do the same thing with the white wires and land the white pigtail on the appropriate location on the GFCI. All derating of the NM-B cable and breaker is done. Would this meet code?

tonyf 06-10-2009 09:53 PM

So what you are saying is you have a GFCI Breaker and you wish to make pigtails in the panel?

airdaleairdale 06-10-2009 09:56 PM

Yes I do.

Scuba_Dave 06-10-2009 10:00 PM

You can pigtail in the panel
That is allowed by code

tonyf 06-10-2009 10:01 PM

although this is done, it IS a CODE violation.

Scuba_Dave 06-10-2009 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonyf (Post 285745)
although this is done, it IS a CODE violation.

and the specific NEC code violation is ??

Read thru this prior thread - same thing

http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/wires...dcenter-45985/

tonyf 06-10-2009 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave (Post 285749)
and the specific NEC code violation is ??

Read thru this prior thread - same thing

http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/wires...dcenter-45985/

I assumed he was canadian, so would be be CSA code violation. Also, even though NEC permits, I find it very unsafe. The panel is NOT a junction box

Scuba_Dave 06-10-2009 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonyf (Post 285752)
I assumed he was canadian, so would be be CSA code violation. Also, even though NEC permits, I find it very unsafe. The panel is NOT a junction box

You said it was a Code violation
Wire splices/pigtails are not unsafe, they are used all the time day in day out

Speedy Petey 06-10-2009 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonyf (Post 285752)
Also, even though NEC permits, I find it very unsafe.

I am extremely curious as to why you consider it "very unsafe". Especially since it is expressly allowed by code.

tonyf 06-10-2009 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speedy Petey (Post 285763)
I am extremely curious as to why you consider it "very unsafe". Especially since it is expressly allowed by code.

One more time for the Americans. It is a CSA (CEC) code violation, using the electrical panel as a junction box is NOT permitted. We are a bit safer in Canada, as in a panel, you have live parts (all breaker termination points for one), were as in a junction box, the box is bonded and should the wire nut become loose, it trips the breaker AS the JB is BONDED. Should your wire nut come off in the panel, the potential is there for the conductors to come in contact with any number of live points. I wil not answer any more posts on this, as this is a CSA (CEC) code violation, NOT an NEC code. CLEAR ENOUGH?http://www.diychatroom.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Speedy Petey 06-10-2009 11:15 PM

Yeah, we get it. You are in Canada, even though your profile is empty.

That is why I specifically quoted your sentence. It IS allowed by code in the US. And it is NOT at all unsafe. Your logic could be applied to any number of different scenarios. In fact, I consider it safer since you know for sure that a panel will be bonded.

Sorry, I don't buy your logic at ALL. I actually think you are trying to convince us (and yourself) that it is somehow safer simply to justify the fact that it is a code violation according to the CEC.

The NEC and the CEC are quite similar, but the CEC has some dumb codes. Like only 20A receptacles on 20A circuits.
Don't get all bothered that I say this. The NEC has it's share of dumb codes as well.

InPhase277 06-10-2009 11:33 PM

So what does a Canadian do when he changes out a panel and some of the wires are too short? A bunch of j-boxes?

By the way tonyf, you didn't simply say it was a CEC violation, you said it was "very unsafe". Sometimes, they are not synonymous. I'm curious as to why you consider it such. I know you won't answer, because you have made up your mind, but I'm curious.

tonyf 06-10-2009 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speedy Petey (Post 285772)
Yeah, we get it. You are in Canada, even though your profile is empty.

That is why I specifically quoted your sentence. It IS allowed by code in the US. And it is NOT at all unsafe. Your logic could be applied to any number of different scenarios. In fact, I consider it safer since you know for sure that a panel will be bonded.

Sorry, I don't buy your logic at ALL. I actually think you are trying to convince us (and yourself) that it is somehow safer simply to justify the fact that it is a code violation according to the CEC.

The NEC and the CEC are quite similar, but the CEC has some dumb codes. Like only 20A receptacles on 20A circuits.
Don't get all bothered that I say this. The NEC has it's share of dumb codes as well.

There is no point in arguing, but look at this senario. We all have seen this. Not that it has ever happend to you, but to the average homeowner who really has no business being in the panel, as many HOME owners dont make good connections, etc. There are lots of wires in the panel, so you have a tough time putting the cover on.
The wire nut comes off one of the neutral wires you have extended. With the jostling of the wires, that neutral accidently finds it way to a hot point in the panel. You now have a 240 volt circuit. Yes, it would be rare to happen, but for this reason making connections in a panel is a bad idea. NEC allows it, CSA does not.

Speedy Petey 06-11-2009 12:02 AM

Tony, this is far from an argument. it is a decent discussion so far.

I see your point, but your "what if..." scenarios could be used in many different settings or situations. I think we just fail to see how this is any more unsafe than 100 other things.

Scuba_Dave 06-11-2009 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonyf (Post 285752)
I assumed he was canadian, so would be be CSA code violation. Also, even though NEC permits, I find it very unsafe. The panel is NOT a junction box

Why would you assume he is Canadian?
Is the name "airdale" Canadian or is there a Town or location called that in Canada?
Just curious


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