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Old 04-15-2011, 07:19 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rusty baker View Post
These guys are all telling you the right way to do it by code. Since there is no code here, I would do it the way you suggested. That is the way it would have been done for many years and it worked fine.
does the OP live in the same state or whatever municipality you speak of that has no code? If not, it is not a good idea to suggest he ignore the code.

Even more important than that though: regardless of the code, or lack of one, you will be killed just as easily as those in an area where there is a code if you end up with the situation I spoke of.


and I don't know where you are specifically but it appears the NEC has been adopted in many areas of your state.

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Old 04-15-2011, 09:18 PM   #17
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Nap, most counties in Missouri are not zoned, therefore they have no official codes. Only within in the cities are codes enforced, rural areas are not. Reread my message, I did not suggest he violate codes. I just reminded him that electricity was not grounded for many years. For decades, that was the norm. My house had the old 2 wire, single strand, no ground for 100 years without problems. I put in a new box and rewired it myself about 5 years ago and I checked, that was perfectly legal here. A homeowner here is allowed to do any work that they want here on their own home. We still believe in freedom.
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Old 04-15-2011, 09:35 PM   #18
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rusty, I did a very quick search for municipalities that do have an electrical code in Missouri. There were a lot of hits.

It appears St. Louis COUNTY has an electrical code.

As well as Cass county.

Oh, and you might want to check out

Platte county

st. Charles county

How many counties are there in Misery?

and I didn't want to even start on the smaller levels of governing bodies.

Quote:
Reread my message, I did not suggest he violate codes.
you inferred it was correct to do it without the ground system in place if there was no code in force. You inferred it was safe because that is the way it was done for many years. You are wrong.
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Old 04-15-2011, 09:42 PM   #19
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I believe Missouri has 104 counties. Most are rural and do not have county zoning or codes. So we disagree. And most of the cities exempt homeowners who do their own work. As they should.
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Old 04-15-2011, 10:09 PM   #20
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I believe Missouri has 104 counties. Most are rural and do not have county zoning or codes. So we disagree. And most of the cities exempt homeowners who do their own work. As they should.
rusty, I don't want to hijack this thread any further so I'll leave it at this:

is the OP in your state? If so, is he in an area where there is no code? If not, it is not right to infer it is ok for him to do what you would do in your area that does not enforce any sort of code.

I do like the idea that your state allows home owners to make their homes unsafe so when it is sold, the unsuspecting buyer can be killed by an unsafe installation legally.
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Old 04-15-2011, 11:24 PM   #21
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I work in an area that has lots of "old" houses. Many are 70-100 years old and have lots of original electrical wiring. I always advise homeowners that if they are doing any kind of remodeling, that they update the electrical in that area the most current code. Because it's likely that area of the house won't be remodeled except for cosmetic changes for many more years.
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Old 04-16-2011, 02:14 AM   #22
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I can see a lot of people do not understand faults, and how breakers work in a two wire system. Take it from us professionals who take time out of our personal lives(some would say we don't have one) to come here and dish out reliable advise. We take no gray areas as on this kind of medium (internet forums) it is impossible to cover ever requirement or exception. We do not give out advise that might hurt a novice even if we might do it on the job. There are far too many individuals giving out advise that is just wrong, incomplete or just plain dangerous. Please Electrical work IS DANGEROUS. this being in a bathroom really scares us professionals as we know and understand how wet skin plays an effect in shock accidents. Most people can survive 120v in dry conditions with only acute pain, However it is a completely different ballgame when one is wet or the items touched are wet, It bears a large likelihood that death or serious injury will occur.

Please follow the code - its there for your safety no matter how inconvient

Don't give shoddy advise - even if you think you know look it up and provide a reference.
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Old 07-23-2011, 09:30 AM   #23
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To whom this concerns:
Would it be possible that you have a guide book of sorts? Something that you have put together and can be handy hee in my home ! If so, i would very much like to obtain this so called guidance book. I 'am sure you most likely have a fee and i wouldn't expect anything less.


sincerely, mark teague
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Old 07-23-2011, 12:28 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by FutureSparky View Post
Also a ground fault would trip a breaker once someone completes the circuit (touch it grounded), right? I didn't think it would trip a breaker without a GFCI if say a metal frame was energized until someone touched it.
I just wanted to specifically answer this, because it's one of those dangerous assumptions I hear alot.

The answer is no. If you become part of a 120v circuit, you can easily pass enough current through your body to cause death, but probably not enough to cause a 15A breaker to trip. Even an amp or so at 120V can be enough to kill. This is exactly why GFCIs exist, to open the circuit if more than a few milliamps of current are flowing somewhere they shouldn't be.
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Old 07-23-2011, 12:38 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McSteve View Post
I just wanted to specifically answer this, because it's one of those dangerous assumptions I hear alot.

The answer is no. If you become part of a 120v circuit, you can easily pass enough current through your body to cause death, but probably not enough to cause a 15A breaker to trip. Even an amp or so at 120V can be enough to kill. This is exactly why GFCIs exist, to open the circuit if more than a few milliamps of current are flowing somewhere they shouldn't be.
Agreed! I understand that 6 milliamps flowing through the heart is enough to stop it.

The biggest danger from electricity is that it virtually cooks the white corpusels and then they block kidney function and you die from renal failure.
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Old 07-23-2011, 06:20 PM   #26
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Here's a chart from ECMWEB. GFCI's are set to trip at roughly 4 to 6 milliamps. As you can see from the chart, you can die before a 15A breaker can trip.
Attached Thumbnails
splicing electrical-106ecmcsfig1.gif  
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Old 07-24-2011, 05:51 AM   #27
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OK - a non-abstract story about how what you propose to do almost killed a homeowner (true story).

Got a call about wife getting shocked when using bathroom sink. Tell them, "Don't use the bathroom at all until I get there." I won't bore you with all the troubleshooting it took to find this problem, but here's how it happened.

Before the current HO had the house, someone prior added a bathroom receptacle by feeding it from the light over the sink. The used a metal old work box, but didn't attach the ground wire at the light. It worked fine for years until the GFCI died on the current HO, so the husband replaced it. He hooked up all 3 wires correctly. What he didn't do (that an electrician would have) was to check the ground continuity first. Well, when he pushed the large GFCI back in the small GEM box, the hot screw touched the side of the box. It just so happens that the expansion ears on the old work GEM box were touching a cast iron drain pipe. So you now have 120V on the drain piping and grounded metal water pipes. If she had tried the shower (full body contact) and not the sink, she might well have been dead.

Moral - the code rules are there for a reason.

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