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Old 08-27-2009, 09:46 PM   #46
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Splicing on 6 gauge wire


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Originally Posted by InPhase277 View Post
In other words, a toaster will never draw 100 A, even if given the chance, but a 30 A dryer might.
A toaster could draw 100A pretty easily. At least, for a little while.

I'm not sure there's an entirely rational safety reason behind "max breaker" ratings on things like heat pumps. If it's a cord and plug thing then yeah you don't want to overload the outlet.

A motor with no built in overloads can burn up and catch fire without ever drawing more than its "max breaker" rating. One with overloads will trip those anyway.

Of course there should be common sense involved, but I really don't see a compelling safety argument against an extra 10 or 20 amps on the breaker past the max rating when no cord and plug are involved and the wire is large enough.

All that said... I wouldn't mess around with a clothes dryer. Those things are enough of a fire hazard even without pushing your luck on something that isn't code compliant.

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Old 08-27-2009, 10:08 PM   #47
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Splicing on 6 gauge wire


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Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave View Post
I think he's pointing out that a lot of household items are plugged into circuits that could supply a lot more power then what they are rated for
I have no idea how a household item is "protected" against a defect/problem where it could pull up to the circuit rating?

So a 30a dryer must have a 30 breaker
But a 3a household device can be protected bya 20a breaker?

I think that's where he is going ?
I think I pointed out in a previous post (when someone cited the example of the 3a. TV being protected by a 15 or 20a. circuit breaker) that the larger size protection is to protect the supply line (Branch Circuit). The appliance itself might or might not have internal protection. As some industrial motors have overload and short circuit protective heaters in the Magnetic Starter that are a fraction of the supply line (branch circuit). Whereas in the case of the 30amp. Dryer supply line being tapped into the 50 Amp. Branch Circuit of the Range, the entire branch circuit is in jeopardy in addition to the Dryer!(No matter what)Don't Drink and Drive!!!
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Old 08-27-2009, 10:38 PM   #48
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Splicing on 6 gauge wire


Daniel Holzman (post # 47?) Your observations are very well noted! As you point out in the Fourth and Fifth paragraphs the distinction (from the viewpoint of both, the UL and NEC) between small and major appliances, particularly those whose primary function is to produce heat. Let's assume, hypothetically if the motor of a drill, for some reason (Prolonged LR condition?) burns out. It's not a pleasant situation, but no major safety hazard has occurred. But a clothes dryer whose heating elements draw more than their rated power could very well cause a serious fire!Eliminate confusion through Education!!! No matter whatDon't Drink and Drive!!!
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Old 08-27-2009, 10:40 PM   #49
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Splicing on 6 gauge wire


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Originally Posted by Gigs View Post
A toaster could draw 100A pretty easily. At least, for a little while.
Maybe, if measured in hundredths or thousandths of a second. A toaster's heating elements are quite fragile. They would melt and open at not much more current than they draw at normal operating conditions.

Quote:
I'm not sure there's an entirely rational safety reason behind "max breaker" ratings on things like heat pumps. If it's a cord and plug thing then yeah you don't want to overload the outlet.

A motor with no built in overloads can burn up and catch fire without ever drawing more than its "max breaker" rating. One with overloads will trip those anyway.

Of course there should be common sense involved, but I really don't see a compelling safety argument against an extra 10 or 20 amps on the breaker past the max rating when no cord and plug are involved and the wire is large enough.

All that said... I wouldn't mess around with a clothes dryer. Those things are enough of a fire hazard even without pushing your luck on something that isn't code compliant.
The max breaker size on things like heat pumps is to protect the wiring, not the machine, because the wire can be smaller than what would normally be used.
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Old 08-27-2009, 10:44 PM   #50
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Splicing on 6 gauge wire


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Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave View Post
Ok, I figured it must be something like that
I guess we have to trust the Mfg
Hopefully as long as its not made in China
The Chinese "industries" can imitate the UL and CSA symbols, too. Electrical Contractor Magazine had a recent article about it! This blog is not about exposing the bootlegging by that country. But if it were, I'd have plenty to say about it!!!No matter what! Don't Drink and Drive!!!

Last edited by spark plug; 08-27-2009 at 10:45 PM. Reason: Typographical error (Typo)
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Old 08-28-2009, 12:16 AM   #51
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Splicing on 6 gauge wire


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Originally Posted by KayJay View Post
IMO, the NEC and UL listing have everything to do with an electrical installation, even a botched DIY job. As far as I can tell though, your hypothetical ramblings have nothing to do with anything, since it can’t legally be done.

Example from page-2 of the UL listed installation instructions from a GE model WJSE4150B1WW electric dryer:

ELECTRICAL REQUIREMENTS
This dryer must be connected to an individual branch circuit, protected by the required time-delay fuses or circuit breakers. A four wire or three-wire, single phase, 120/240V or 120/208V, 60Hz, 30Amp circuit is required.
If the electric supply does not meet the above specifications, then call a licensed electrician.

GROUNDING INSTRUCTIONS
This dryer must be connected to grounded metal, permanent wiring system, or an equipment-grounding conductor must be run with the circuit conductors and connected to the equipment-grounding terminal on the appliance.

What code article are you referring to regarding cord and plug restrictions for this installation?. 210.19?, 210.20?, 210.21B[2]?, 210.23?, 240.5?, 400.5[A]?
These and several others have already been addressed by the manufactures UL listed instructions based on the electrical requirements and nameplate data for the appliance. This is what makes them so important to follow.

BTW, if you hard wire it you need further address the issue of a code compliant disconnecting means. Very few dryers are hard wired for this reason including the large commercial gas dryers that I service.

It stands to reason that appliances submitted for UL testing along with the internal wiring and protective devices built into the appliance by the manufacturer are tested taking the branch circuit size and protection ahead of them into account, which is likely why the manufactures UL listed instructions include specific electrical supply requirements for the appliance.
Do tell....Why is it that you keep wanting to pat yourself on the back with all your ramblings about this being a code violation .. we have known that from page one. BTW KBsparky listed the receptacle limitations I refered to earlier.

Are you trying to impress someone with all those code sub-sections??

Unfortunately you are still are focused on it being a code violation to connect a dryer to a typical 50 or 60 amp branch circuit...because of manufacturers instructions. This was never the question.. violation or not.
The original question was about connecting a dryer to a 50 amp branch circuit to a range (cooking appliance) by tapping into the branch circuit conductors. I cited the codes that are directly associated with tapping 50 amp branch circuits to cooking appliances and what is necessary to meet code in that application. That was hardly rambling.

And give me a break on the disconnect fella it is an easy compliance and less costly than a receptacle for a residential dryer.
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Old 08-28-2009, 12:35 AM   #52
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Splicing on 6 gauge wire


Quote:
ELECTRICAL REQUIREMENTS
This dryer must be connected to an individual branch circuit, protected by the required time-delay fuses or circuit breakers. A four wire or three-wire, single phase, 120/240V or 120/208V, 60Hz, 30Amp circuit is required.
If the electric supply does not meet the above specifications, then call a licensed electrician.


I would call this a minimum.....

Open question..


Everyone here knows that we would wire this dryer on 10 awg with a 30 amp breaker. probably to a receptacle. But would I be in violation of the NEC or manufacturers instructions if I hardwired it with 35 or 40 amp branch circuit rating. What I'm asking... Is it cut in stone from the manufacturers instructions listed above to be 30 amps 10 awg maximum? Keeping in mind that this is an individual branch circuit requirement from the manufacturer.
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Old 08-28-2009, 10:24 AM   #53
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Splicing on 6 gauge wire


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Originally Posted by Stubbie View Post
Do tell....Why is it that you keep wanting to pat yourself on the back with all your ramblings about this being a code violation .. we have known that from page one. BTW KBsparky listed the receptacle limitations I refered to earlier.

Are you trying to impress someone with all those code sub-sections??

Unfortunately you are still are focused on it being a code violation to connect a dryer to a typical 50 or 60 amp branch circuit...because of manufacturers instructions. This was never the question.. violation or not.
The original question was about connecting a dryer to a 50 amp branch circuit to a range (cooking appliance) by tapping into the branch circuit conductors. I cited the codes that are directly associated with tapping 50 amp branch circuits to cooking appliances and what is necessary to meet code in that application. That was hardly rambling.

And give me a break on the disconnect fella it is an easy compliance and less costly than a receptacle for a residential dryer.
There is no need or desire to attempt to impress or indulge in any self-gratification on my part. Just trying to figure out where you are coming from on this.

If you attempt to take all professionalism, the NEC and listing issues out of the discussion of any electrical installation… you are left with nothing but unsafe freestyle DIY installation techniques and meaningless rhetoric. Is this what you are striving for?

You accept that it’s a violation, and then are attempting to rationalize and compare it to another installation, when even the method of installation you are referencing might be considered a violation on a very basic elementary level.

The point here is that it could even be successfully argued that if the listed instructions for a cooktop and a wall-mount oven each specify that they require properly protected individual branch circuits, you could forget about using the tap rule in 210.19[A],[3], exception #1, since the manufactures listed installation instructions would supersede the NEC.

Last edited by KayJay; 08-28-2009 at 10:37 AM.
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Old 08-28-2009, 10:37 AM   #54
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Splicing on 6 gauge wire


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The Chinese "industries" can imitate the UL and CSA symbols, too.
Customs will stop it at the border as a trademark violation if they find out about it.
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Old 08-28-2009, 10:39 AM   #55
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I would call this a minimum.....

Open question..


Everyone here knows that we would wire this dryer on 10 awg with a 30 amp breaker. probably to a receptacle. But would I be in violation of the NEC or manufacturers instructions if I hardwired it with 35 or 40 amp branch circuit rating. What I'm asking... Is it cut in stone from the manufacturers instructions listed above to be 30 amps 10 awg maximum? Keeping in mind that this is an individual branch circuit requirement from the manufacturer.
I donít see any reference to minimum, but I do see the word required in there twice. Once for overcurrent protection and once for circuit ampacity.
The reason they specify required ampacity and not wire size is because you could use conductors larger than #10 for a 30A circuit if you want or need to, such as for voltage drop issues.
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Old 08-28-2009, 01:12 PM   #56
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Splicing on 6 gauge wire


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Kayjay


You accept that it’s a violation, and then are attempting to rationalize and compare it to another installation, when even the method of installation you are referencing might be considered a violation on a very basic elementary level.

The point here is that it could even be successfully argued that if the listed instructions for a cooktop and a wall-mount oven each specify that they require properly protected individual branch circuits, you could forget about using the tap rule in 210.19[A],[3], exception #1, since the manufactures listed installation instructions would supersede the NEC.
I give up.... I am not arguing or comparing or rationalizing anything to the OP's code violation You keep responding to my replies to Dans question which had nothing to do with the op's installation ... Dans question was a result of it.

Rambling post to follow.....after deleting long winded post.....

The OP's installation is a code violation for many reasons including 110.13(B). You keep asking and I keep telling you its a code violation and you keep asking.

You spun this into 110.13(B) I didn't. You have yet to step up to the plate and answer DANs question in post #27. I will not pursue any more code rhetoric with you. His question (for the last time) has nothing to do with all these code articles you are throwing around like popcorn at a ballgame.

I'm trying to figure out where your coming from....

I answered DANs questions plain and simple... you keep referring to codes and the original posters installation. Can we please get on the same page ??

And would you stop with setting up the codes to suit your purpose. Hell man we could both manipulate the code to our satisfaction. You seem to think there is a code answer to DAN's question. Would you please go back and look at what he asked...and then come back here and tell me how your going to answer it with code and especially with 110.13(B)?

All this argument about code and instructions is pointless.

If we want to argue about 110.13(B) lets start a new thread
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Old 08-28-2009, 10:02 PM   #57
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I give up.... I am not arguing or comparing or rationalizing anything to the OP's code violation You keep responding to my replies to Dans question which had nothing to do with the op's installation ... Dans question was a result of it.

Rambling post to follow.....after deleting long winded post.....

The OP's installation is a code violation for many reasons including 110.13(B). You keep asking and I keep telling you its a code violation and you keep asking.

You spun this into 110.13(B) I didn't. You have yet to step up to the plate and answer DANs question in post #27. I will not pursue any more code rhetoric with you. His question (for the last time) has nothing to do with all these code articles you are throwing around like popcorn at a ballgame.

I'm trying to figure out where your coming from....

I answered DANs questions plain and simple... you keep referring to codes and the original posters installation. Can we please get on the same page ??

And would you stop with setting up the codes to suit your purpose. Hell man we could both manipulate the code to our satisfaction. You seem to think there is a code answer to DAN's question. Would you please go back and look at what he asked...and then come back here and tell me how your going to answer it with code and especially with 110.13(B)?

All this argument about code and instructions is pointless.

If we want to argue about 110.13(B) lets start a new thread
Regarding this and the earlier response that you recently edited.

My original reply to the OP’s post was open, but it was you who decided to belligerently respond in an erroneous attempt to assert some posture of superior technical ability as the sensei of intellectual prowess and deep thought.
This DIY job was botched, but I don’t recall insulting the OP’s intelligence by stating that known fact. I have simply been questioning your logic since your first reply to me.

I’m not sure how knowing the correct way to do something and being able to reference the appropriate answer to back up my statements for others to verify somehow puts me on a high horse, but if so, then that is just the unfortunate result of living this trade for several decades. I am also still learning every day. Are you saying that you do not have the ability to do the same?

The code says what it says, I don’t manipulate it. I try to reference known formal interpretations whenever possible. There are also other things you must take into account in addition to the NEC for electrical installations, such as the UL white book, where again you will find written text to back up my statement about following the manufactures installation instructions, even for household cooking equipment, if you care to look.
Also, I never mentioned anything about 110.13[b], so not sure where that came from.

I have turned off email notifications, so you can feel free to reply and edit your response as many times as you need to try and make your point relevant and coherent.

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Old 08-28-2009, 11:17 PM   #58
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Splicing on 6 gauge wire


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My original reply to the OPís post was open, but it was you who decided to belligerently respond in an erroneous attempt to assert some posture of superior technical ability as the sensei of intellectual prowess and deep thought.
It seems like you threw the first stone with this statement:

Quote:
As far as I can tell though, your hypothetical ramblings have nothing to do with anything...
Before that, Stubbie was very cordial. The first tones of hostility crept up in your quote above.
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Old 08-29-2009, 02:22 AM   #59
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Splicing on 6 gauge wire


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My original reply to the OP’s post was open, but it was you who decided to belligerently respond in an erroneous attempt to assert some posture of superior technical ability as the sensei of intellectual prowess and deep thought.
This DIY job was botched, but I don’t recall insulting the OP’s intelligence by stating that known fact. I have simply been questioning your logic since your first reply to me.

I’m not sure how knowing the correct way to do something and being able to reference the appropriate answer to back up my statements for others to verify somehow puts me on a high horse, but if so, then that is just the unfortunate result of living this trade for several decades. I am also still learning every day. Are you saying that you do not have the ability to do the same?
I'm not sure what the first paragraph said.... but I think it was a compliment...

I do apologize for being a bit testy and for the deleted post ...it was unfair and too personal.. reason I deleted it. But I dislike internet police that come into a thread declare the discussion irrelevant because it is a code violation and further discussion is fruitless "sayeth the lord".

Dan's question was a technical question not a code question. He simply wanted to know more about the 'why' of the tap being incorrect "electrically speaking" and stated his reasoning. Frankly we never got to finish that discussion... it was unfortunate....as there was much more to be discussed little of which had to do with codes. And none of it would have had to do with 110.13(B) or any appliances articles in 422.

The fact that you can tap a cooking appliance branch circuit made things relevant in my opinion. Why a cooktop tap but not a dryer? Why not 50 amp on a 30 amp branch circuit to a dryer? DANs understanding had several merits and some misunderstandings..most of which I should have returned to... but chose instead to spar with you. My mistake.

Where I was going with the posting of those instructions was this qoute below...and this is a qoute from someone who knows more in his little finger than I will ever know.. maybe you wrote it??

Commentary to 422.11(A) " If a labeled or listed appliance is provided with installation instructions from the manufacturer, the branch circuit is not permitted to be less than the minimum size stated in the installation instructions." "Also see 110.13(B)"
And frankly the above commentary is how I have been told and trained by several electricians and instructors over the years. So shoot me if you want.

Your example used the word "required" pretty hard to agrue what that means but on a more prestigous professional forum than here they do a good job of it. The consensus is from that discussion is it is a code violation...you must supply with only a 30 amp branch circuit with 10 awg copper conductors. So I would likely lose the argument that required is a minimum.

ALSO I respect anyone who cites code to defend their stand. What I didn't like is your attempt to make the questions Dan asked a code compliance issue no discussion neccesary... case closed..plain as that.

And for what it is worth I would certainly say your someone who knows a little. So maybe in the future we can have a disussion to a posters question that we will find some common ground.

With that I will apologize and in hind sight I could have found a much better response to your replies.

Sorry but I have good days and bad.

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