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Old 08-27-2009, 06:11 AM   #31
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Splicing on 6 gauge wire


Stubbie, you forgot to mention the requirements in 210.21(B)(3):

Quote:
Receptacle Ratings. Where connected to a branch circuit supplying 2 or more receptacles or outlets, receptacle ratings shall conform to the values listed in Table 210.21(B)(3), or where larger than 50 Amps, the receptacle ratings shall not be less than the branch circuit rating.

Table 210.21(B)(3) Receptacle Ratings for Various Size Circuits.
Circuit Rating -------- Receptacle Rating

15 ---------------------- Not over 15
20 ------------------------ 15 or 20
30 --------------------------- 30
40 ------------------------ 40 or 50
50 --------------------------- 50
From this information, you cannot use a 60 Amp breaker feeding either a 30 or a 50 Amp receptacle.

Table 210.24 also reinforces this concept.

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Old 08-27-2009, 12:31 PM   #32
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Yeah I was looking at that Kb, I was having a little trouble getting myself squared away on the tap thing, cause you know how code is....somewhere in the murky waters there is another exception...

But yes I agree couldn't have the receptacle rated 30 amps on a 50 amp branch circuit. I also overlooked that he said he had this on a 60 amp breaker in post 4. So my post was concerning a 50 amp branch circuit to the range but this still doesn't change what you posted.

I have seen a 4 wire feeder ran to the range location and a small sub-panel installed (accessible) with two breakers. One for a range or cooktop and one was for a hot water tank. This was rather common in modular homes in my area. This would be about the only way he could do what he wants.
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Old 08-27-2009, 01:02 PM   #33
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Splicing on 6 gauge wire


Sometimes DIY should be DDIY Ė Donít Do In Yourself.

Since dryers are appliances, you could start with 422.11[A] and 422.62 [b],1. These should help guide you into compliance with the most basic requirements of 110.3 [b] and the manufactures UL listing of the appliance, which would include the nameplate data and printed instructions. IMO at this point, applying code articles beyond this now becomes irrelevant to the OPís original botched installation since there is truly no practical way to make it right other than to start over from the beginning.
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Old 08-27-2009, 01:15 PM   #34
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Splicing on 6 gauge wire


Well I credit him for coming on & posting what he did & asking if it is right

How many people are out there doing the work without 2x checking?
One reason I bought the NEC 2005 code book I wanted to know what the code actually was instead of being told something that might not be true

I've done electric work since I was a kid - father taught me
"Simple" stuff outlets, lights & switches, Dad was the Inspector & a task master
After moving out I know I have done some "bad" wiring, did not know everything
The more you read, the more you learn
I've learned more about electric in the past 6 years then the rest of my life
And I doubt I know even 5-10% of what a real electrician knows
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Old 08-27-2009, 03:10 PM   #35
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Splicing on 6 gauge wire


Quote:
Originally Posted by KayJay View Post
Sometimes DIY should be DDIY Ė Donít Do In Yourself.

Since dryers are appliances, you could start with 422.11[A] and 422.62 [b],1. These should help guide you into compliance with the most basic requirements of 110.3 [b] and the manufactures UL listing of the appliance, which would include the nameplate data and printed instructions. IMO at this point, applying code articles beyond this now becomes irrelevant to the OPís original botched installation since there is truly no practical way to make it right other than to start over from the beginning.
Unfortunately that wasn't the questions asked and if you can show me a dryer with a maximum breaker listed on the nameplate I'm all ears. Most are marked in accordance with 422.62(B)(2) then go back to 422.11 and it states "if marked with maximum breaker".

The instructions will state a recommended minimum branch circuit rating using 10 awg and if you cord and plug the dryer it follows that you will be using a 30 amp receptacle and then it follows that you will have to protect with ocpd of 30 amps.

If the dryer is hardwired (many are) then the branch circuit must be minimum 30 amps and the supply cord if used must match the power supply not the appliance.

What Dan was asking is what is the safety issue considering overload protection provided for by the manufacturer integral for the appliance heater and motor. Overcurrent ground faults would be handled by the breaker in the panel and the branch circuit. The question actually had nothing to do with code. It had to do with what is different with a 30 amp tap to a cooktop from a 50 amp branch circuit or 30 amp tap to a dryer from same.

Tossing out any cord and plug restrictions and hardwiring I see no difference what so ever because the same requirments associated with the art. 422's subsections you cited are applied to both... only one has a motor and the other doesn't.
It was established early in the thread that the installation as it was wasn't code compliant as far as code was concerned. The other replies were to Dan's question. So a discussion was IMO necessary to take a stand one way or the other if a tap to a dryer would be any different than a tap to a cooktop from a 50 amp branch circuit. I say 'no difference' outside of code requirements. One being code compliant and one being non code compliant.
If all the safety overload devices (also required in the sub-sections of 422) fail in either appliance that is placed on these taps the 30 amp conductors are in jeopardy of insulation failure due to the 50 amp ocpd in the panel protecting the branch circuit conductors becoming the overload protection for the appliances.

UL listing and manufacturer instructions and code really had no bearing on Dans question.
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Old 08-27-2009, 03:24 PM   #36
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Splicing on 6 gauge wire


Quote:
Originally Posted by paxprobellum View Post
Erm. I don't think that's what is being said. I think they are saying a 60A breaker is too much for the dryer, which is typically a 30A breaker.



Theoretically speaking. Though I wouldn't really consider this a problem. It seems like the issue is if the dryer pulls 60A from the circuit, it would fry itself.

In other words, the problem with the wiring is a dryer that isn't being protected by the circuit breaker. Right?
Why try to influence a "know it all", he is going to do what he wants. Let the code be profanity removed.
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Old 08-27-2009, 03:41 PM   #37
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Splicing on 6 gauge wire


Quote:
Originally Posted by rjniles View Post
Why try to influence a "know it all", he is going to do what he wants. Let the code be profanity removed.
I don't see anywhere that he has claimed to be a know-it-all
He came on this site to find out if what he did was correct
He has gone on to find out what he can do to correct this & his options

That said, profanity is not needed
And, if you have nothing to contribute-please refrain from these types of posts

Last edited by Scuba_Dave; 08-27-2009 at 04:35 PM. Reason: sp
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Old 08-27-2009, 04:03 PM   #38
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Splicing on 6 gauge wire


Quote:
Originally Posted by rjniles View Post
Why try to influence a "know it all", he is going to do what he wants. Let the code be profanity removed.
I'm not sure where this came from. Let the record show that I appreciate all the feedback I've gotten on the forum, and I plan to correct my wiring ASAP as I stated earlier in the thread. Many thanks to those who shared their electrical expertise with me -- no thanks to the quoted author.
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Old 08-27-2009, 06:32 PM   #39
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Splicing on 6 gauge wire


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stubbie View Post
Unfortunately that wasn't the questions asked and if you can show me a dryer with a maximum breaker listed on the nameplate I'm all ears. Most are marked in accordance with 422.62(B)(2) then go back to 422.11 and it states "if marked with maximum breaker".

The instructions will state a recommended minimum branch circuit rating using 10 awg and if you cord and plug the dryer it follows that you will be using a 30 amp receptacle and then it follows that you will have to protect with ocpd of 30 amps.

If the dryer is hardwired (many are) then the branch circuit must be minimum 30 amps and the supply cord if used must match the power supply not the appliance.

What Dan was asking is what is the safety issue considering overload protection provided for by the manufacturer integral for the appliance heater and motor. Overcurrent ground faults would be handled by the breaker in the panel and the branch circuit. The question actually had nothing to do with code. It had to do with what is different with a 30 amp tap to a cooktop from a 50 amp branch circuit or 30 amp tap to a dryer from same.

Tossing out any cord and plug restrictions and hardwiring I see no difference what so ever because the same requirments associated with the art. 422's subsections you cited are applied to both... only one has a motor and the other doesn't.
It was established early in the thread that the installation as it was wasn't code compliant as far as code was concerned. The other replies were to Dan's question. So a discussion was IMO necessary to take a stand one way or the other if a tap to a dryer would be any different than a tap to a cooktop from a 50 amp branch circuit. I say 'no difference' outside of code requirements. One being code compliant and one being non code compliant.
If all the safety overload devices (also required in the sub-sections of 422) fail in either appliance that is placed on these taps the 30 amp conductors are in jeopardy of insulation failure due to the 50 amp ocpd in the panel protecting the branch circuit conductors becoming the overload protection for the appliances.

UL listing and manufacturer instructions and code really had no bearing on Dans question.
IMO, the NEC and UL listing have everything to do with an electrical installation, even a botched DIY job. As far as I can tell though, your hypothetical ramblings have nothing to do with anything, since it canít legally be done.

Example from page-2 of the UL listed installation instructions from a GE model WJSE4150B1WW electric dryer:

ELECTRICAL REQUIREMENTS
This dryer must be connected to an individual branch circuit, protected by the required time-delay fuses or circuit breakers. A four wire or three-wire, single phase, 120/240V or 120/208V, 60Hz, 30Amp circuit is required.
If the electric supply does not meet the above specifications, then call a licensed electrician.

GROUNDING INSTRUCTIONS
This dryer must be connected to grounded metal, permanent wiring system, or an equipment-grounding conductor must be run with the circuit conductors and connected to the equipment-grounding terminal on the appliance.

What code article are you referring to regarding cord and plug restrictions for this installation?. 210.19?, 210.20?, 210.21B[2]?, 210.23?, 240.5?, 400.5[A]?
These and several others have already been addressed by the manufactures UL listed instructions based on the electrical requirements and nameplate data for the appliance. This is what makes them so important to follow.

BTW, if you hard wire it you need further address the issue of a code compliant disconnecting means. Very few dryers are hard wired for this reason including the large commercial gas dryers that I service.

It stands to reason that appliances submitted for UL testing along with the internal wiring and protective devices built into the appliance by the manufacturer are tested taking the branch circuit size and protection ahead of them into account, which is likely why the manufactures UL listed instructions include specific electrical supply requirements for the appliance.
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Old 08-27-2009, 08:08 PM   #40
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Splicing on 6 gauge wire


I have to say this was possibly the most interesting thread I have read in the last few months. Several very good posts, thorough, thoughtful, and well researched.

What I have concluded is that the NEC code, for reasons not entirely clear, carefully distinguishes between tapping multiple kitchen appliances off a single 50A circuit versus tapping a combination of kitchen and non-kitchen appliances. This is pretty arcane stuff, but rules are rules. Not that I ever really considered wiring any other way, I have always run separate wires for each major appliance, but I was unaware of the full NEC background.

The fact the UL listings for specific appliances may impose additional restrictions on the specific size of the breaker or circuit raises some interesting questions. For example, I have a built in electric oven that required a 40A circuit. No problem, I put in the appropriate breaker and wiring. Now if I replace the oven with a unit that has a UL listing requiring a 30A maximum circuit, presumably I need to replace the breaker with a smaller one.

As I see it, the manufacturer appears to be using the breaker as belt and suspenders to protect their device from overcurrent conditions, presumably on the theory that their fuse or internal breaker might fail, and the house breaker would then be the backup to prevent damage, I assume, to the appliance.

This approach seems to be limited to major appliances. I do not ever recall, for example, instructions with an electric drill to only plug the drill into a circuit with a 5A breaker, for example, even though the average electric drill is only rated for 2 or 3 amps. Similarly, I can't recall seeing instructions on a toaster, microwave oven, lamp, electric grill etc. limiting the device to a circuit with a maximum breaker size. I wonder why an electric dryer would be different? Is it because the dryer poses a serious potential fire hazard because it is used unattended and generates large amounts of heat?

The same argument could be made for ovens, cooktops, crock pots, electric kilns, and a variety of other heat generating devices. I wonder if someone with background in this area could enlighten me, and presumably others, about the history and reasoning behind this part of the code,and explain the relationship between UL listing requirements and the NEC.
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Old 08-27-2009, 08:16 PM   #41
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Yes, very informative thread

My 1/2" hammer drill is rated at 9a
My Dewalt reg 3/8 drill is rated at 7a

I'm not sure how much they actually pull while running
I would think it will depend upon the load, what you are drilling, bit in use etc
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Old 08-27-2009, 08:58 PM   #42
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The appliances and tools mentioned above, by Daniel and Scuba, are automatically limited to a specific circuit size by the plugs they came with. The idea is that a receptacle that accepts such a plug should be wired to a branch circuit of the appropriate size (15 or 20 A). And, if you read your tool manuals carefully, they usually DO detail the size of the circuit the device is intended to operate on.
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Old 08-27-2009, 09:08 PM   #43
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I think he's pointing out that a lot of household items are plugged into circuits that could supply a lot more power then what they are rated for
I have no idea how a household item is "protected" against a defect/problem where it could pull up to the circuit rating?

So a 30a dryer must have a 30 breaker
But a 3a household device can be protected bya 20a breaker?

I think that's where he is going ?
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Old 08-27-2009, 09:28 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave View Post
I think he's pointing out that a lot of household items are plugged into circuits that could supply a lot more power then what they are rated for
I have no idea how a household item is "protected" against a defect/problem where it could pull up to the circuit rating?

So a 30a dryer must have a 30 breaker
But a 3a household device can be protected bya 20a breaker?

I think that's where he is going ?
I get it, but a 3 A rated drill won't maintain 10 A for long before it burns a winding up. Same with a toaster. Those things have inherent limitations mostly due to the simplicity of the design. But as the amount of available power goes up, the amount of potential external damage rises exponentially (I think).

In other words, a toaster will never draw 100 A, even if given the chance, but a 30 A dryer might.
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Old 08-27-2009, 09:32 PM   #45
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Ok, I figured it must be something like that
I guess we have to trust the Mfg
Hopefully as long as its not made in China

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