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Old 08-26-2009, 08:32 PM   #16
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Splicing on 6 gauge wire


The 50a ranges are fairly common
If they stated 40a, & 50a was OK - fine ---- but I would not go to 60a
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Old 08-26-2009, 09:20 PM   #17
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Splicing on 6 gauge wire


So I'm trying to decide how I want to rectify the issues here.

Downsizing the breaker on the range seems like a good idea, but doesn't seem like a safety issue.

Putting the dryer on its own 30A circuit seems like the way to go. Though I don't have any documentation on it, this size seems to be the standard. I have 1 more spot on my panel for a double pole breaker, but that would leave me completely breakerless for any projects in the future (ie tool area, music room, and more?).

I am considering scrapping what I've done so far and using the 60A double pole breaker for a sub panel to power the range, the dryer, and any future projects.

Thoughts?
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Old 08-26-2009, 09:23 PM   #18
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Splicing on 6 gauge wire


What size service do you have?
100a...200a ......or ?
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Old 08-26-2009, 09:26 PM   #19
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Splicing on 6 gauge wire


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Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave View Post
What size service do you have?
100a...200a ......or ?
It's 125A
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Old 08-26-2009, 09:34 PM   #20
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Splicing on 6 gauge wire


For one, the dryer receptacle is only rated at 30 A, not to be protected at more than 30 A, and it is on a 60 A circuit. Two, the range receptacle is only rated at 50 A, and can be protected at 40 or 50 A. What I'm saying is that 60 A is overkill for not just the appliances, but the connection devices especially.

I think using that range circuit to feed a subpanel and feeding each appliance from there is the right thing to do, next to running a circuit for the dryer.
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Old 08-26-2009, 09:37 PM   #21
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Splicing on 6 gauge wire


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Originally Posted by jbberns View Post
My tv draws 3 amps and it's on a 20 amp circuit?
And code allows oversizing breakers for motor loads and some other things. Don't have it in front of me but, I can prove it.
Your TV has a plug that is made to fit into a 15 or 20 A receptacle.

Code does allow oversizing breakers for motor loads where overload protection is provided by the motor itself. A dryer is not just a motor load, and a range definitely is not, and neither have built in overload protection.
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Old 08-26-2009, 09:45 PM   #22
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Splicing on 6 gauge wire


Yup, remove the splice
Put a 50a in place of the 60a & feed the range w/50a
Use the 60a & feed a sub-panel
Then feed the 30 dryer from the sub
You'll have some extra room in the sub for other smaller loads

Any other big electric draw items in the house?
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Old 08-26-2009, 09:48 PM   #23
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Splicing on 6 gauge wire


Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave View Post
Yup, remove the splice
Put a 50a in place of the 60a & feed the range w/50a
Use the 60a & feed a sub-panel
Then feed the 30 dryer from the sub
You'll have some extra room in the sub for other smaller loads

Any other big electric draw items in the house?
Nope, unless you count the A/C.
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Old 08-26-2009, 09:58 PM   #24
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Splicing on 6 gauge wire


Quote:
Originally Posted by jbberns View Post
My tv draws 3 amps and it's on a 20 amp circuit?
And code allows oversizing breakers for motor loads and some other things. Don't have it in front of me but, I can prove it.
Friend. You are confusing the issues! When you cite the example of the 3 amp. TV running on a line protected by a 20 Amp. breaker. You're failing to understand that the 20 amp. breaker feeds a line that is the appropriate size. Meaning that until you have (more than) 20 Amps on the line, nothing bad is happening. Whereas here, the heating elements in the dryer could overheat and the entire spliced line could overheat and the breaker would not trip. As far as oversizing the Circuit breaker on large motors (which is permitted by the National Electrical Code) That is done for the reason that a motor will draw more than double its rating for a split second. Furthermore. It is protected by built-in "heating Elements" that would melt if there is a sustained overload or short circuit! (Now more than ever)Don't Drink and Drive!!!
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Old 08-26-2009, 11:04 PM   #25
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Splicing on 6 gauge wire


I am somewhat confused about this discussion. I understood that the purpose of a breaker was to protect the WIRING and the RECEPTACLES, not the appliances. This issue has been discussed repeatedly on this forum, and the discussions have always reached the conclusion that the breaker protected the circuit, and the appliance manufacturer was responsible for protecting the appliance.

For example, my electric oven has a fuse that protects the APPLIANCE ONLY from overcurrent exceeding the rated capacity of the appliance, this has nothing to do with protecting the wiring. As long as the wire is sufficiently sized to match the breaker, i.e. #12 wire with a 20A breaker, #10 with 30A etc., that meets code as I understand it. If you are running device such as a toaster, drill, range, dryer etc. that can internally handle only up to a certain amount of current, I understood that it is the responsibility of the manufacturer to provide overcurrent protection, and the method of providing such protection is not dictated by the NEC.

If this analysis is correct, there is nothing wrong with splicing into a #6 gage circuit to place more than one device on the circuit, and protecting the circuit with a breaker rated no larger than the maximum allowable draw on the wire. I don't have my NEC book with me, but I recall that #6 copper is rated for 50A, possibly 60A, in any case the breaker (by my understanding of code) should be rated no larger than 50A or 60A (whichever is appropriate for #6 wire). The argument that you could put 80A on the circuit is erroneous, because the breaker will trip. The argument that you could put 60A on the circuit and burn up the dryer, well the dryer should be protected against that outcome with appropriate internal overcurrent devices.

Seems to me the worst that happens is that you turn on both devices simultaneously and blow the breaker, which is no different than turning on two 12A devices like a vacuum and a toaster on different outlets wired to the same circuit and blowing the breaker. That is what the breaker is for, isn't it?
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Old 08-26-2009, 11:36 PM   #26
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Splicing on 6 gauge wire


Daniel, you are right about protecting the wiring and receptacles. Which is why it is still a non-compliant set up. The dryer receptacle is rated at 30 A, and the range receptacle is rated at 50 A. If the appliance malfunctions, then it can draw as much current as it wants, up to 60 A or so. What happens to a 30 A receptacle with 60 A running through it? I can tell you this, any receptacle operating at its max rated current is quite warm to the touch, now imagine doubling it.
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Old 08-26-2009, 11:57 PM   #27
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Splicing on 6 gauge wire


So if the owner replaces the 30A dryer receptacle with a 50A rated receptacle of the type that will accept a dryer plug, the setup is OK? Assuming that such a receptacle is available, of course. That would seem to be a simple alternative to running a new line for the dryer.
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Old 08-27-2009, 12:21 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Daniel Holzman View Post
So if the owner replaces the 30A dryer receptacle with a 50A rated receptacle of the type that will accept a dryer plug, the setup is OK? Assuming that such a receptacle is available, of course. That would seem to be a simple alternative to running a new line for the dryer.
Not exactly. I'm pretty sure the literature that came with the dryer specifies the maximum size branch circuit the appliance can be connected to.
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Old 08-27-2009, 01:25 AM   #29
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Splicing on 6 gauge wire


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Did you bond the j-box?
That's the least of his worries
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Old 08-27-2009, 03:38 AM   #30
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Splicing on 6 gauge wire


Lets approach this in terms of code first. Please refer to Nec 210.19(A)(3) exception one.

This exception allows tap conductors on 40 and 50 amp branch circuits that supply cooking appliances . For example if I run a 50 amp branch circuit to a range I am allowed to run taps off that branch circuit to other cooking appliances and the taps must be at least 20 amp rated. These taps must meet all of the four requirements of that exception. I am not allowed to run taps to clothes dryers off a range circuit. I don't cook with a clothes dryer. Code wise that is pretty clear in my opinion.

Now design. It would be unusual to tap a range circuit to supply a cooktop or counter mounted oven though you could have this design. It is more often that a 50 amp branch circuit is ran to a junction box with the intent to tap it to serve two or more cooking appliances. This is done on a calculated load basis knowing that load diversity of Art.220 is allowed. In other words if both appliances are rated 30 amps then the calculated load is 60 amps. but we can supply them with a 50 amp branch circuit per 210.19(A)(3). The tap conductors are usually the applaince whip conductors that originate from the appliance and terminate in the junction box connecting to the 50 amp branch circuit. These tap conductors must terminate in a junction box that is adjacent to the appliances and can be no longer than required to service the appliance. They must be minimum 20 amp taps or sufficient to supply the load.

So I don't see a dryer working out here...

Now there are other loads allowed to be tapped from 50 amp branch circuits under 210.19(A)(4) 'Other loads'. You will notice a Dryer doesn't qualify.

OK pretty clear IMO that a clothes dryer can't be supplied or tapped from a single family residence branch circuit that is 40 or 50 amps that serves one or more cooking appliances as far as the NEC is concerned.

Dan brings up the point... what is so unsafe about it looking at it in terms of overcurrent protection for the appliance and branch circuit. If I tap the 50 amp branch circuit to supply the dryer what is different about doing the same to a cooktop. Answer.. nothing really.. both are 30 amp rated appliances and would have 30 amp taps with upstream OCPD of 50 amps.

So whats the deal...very simply the NEC doesn't want power taken from kitchen branch circuits to operate other appliances not associated with the kitchen.

Dryers by their load ratings pretty much require individual (dedicated) branch circuits in single family homes... almost always 30 amp breaker on 10 awg copper however the manufacturers generally do not state the maximum breaker to be used on the branch circuit. This is a cover my ass requirement in case a thermal overload or other current limiting device fails in the appliance.... the breaker becomes the backup protection for the appliance.

So IMO a tap to a 30 amp dryer from a 50 amp branch circuit is no different than a tap to a 30 amp cooktop and poses the same issues as to overload and overcurrent. It's just that the NEC doesn't allow it from a 50 amp branch circuit serving cooking appliances in a single family residence.
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Last edited by Stubbie; 08-28-2009 at 01:35 AM.
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