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Old 01-08-2009, 01:17 PM   #1
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Splice and wire-nut in panel, ok ?


Right now there is a double (single breaker, two single poles) which the bed room and living room (i think) are on. I would like to take the bedroom off that and put it on an arc-fault but nether the hot or neutral are long enough to move any where else.

What i would like to do is replace a single 15amp breaker (which is lower in the panel) with an arc-fault, move the wires from that single 15 to the double 15 and then make the bedroom wires which are currently on the double 15 longer and place them in the arc-fault.

Would it be a code violation to make the wires longer with wire nuts ?
Is there anything special which i would need to do: twist, wire-nut then tape ? Dont know if there are different rules when doing this in a panel compared to a j-box or not.

I could re-run the line but that would be a bit of a pain to gain 8" and if there is no need, i wont.

thanks.

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Old 01-08-2009, 01:34 PM   #2
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Splice and wire-nut in panel, ok ?


You can splice in the panel, but I'm not sure about all of your question. It makes me think your dealing with a multiwire branch circuit. A picture would be a thousand words here.

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Old 01-08-2009, 01:41 PM   #3
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Splice and wire-nut in panel, ok ?


Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgsgww View Post
It makes me think your dealing with a multiwire branch circuit. A picture would be a thousand words here.
No its not.
Two separate 14-2's hooked up to the "double" breaker.
Im off to work or i would post a pic.

Thanks again.
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Old 01-08-2009, 01:43 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by iMisspell View Post
Thanks


No its not.
Two separate 14-2's hooked up to the "double" breaker.
Im off to work or i would post a pic.

Thanks again.
Sounds good. Splicing is ok.
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Old 01-08-2009, 03:23 PM   #5
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Splice and wire-nut in panel, ok ?


Tandem breakers, two separate cables is how I read it.
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Old 01-08-2009, 11:34 PM   #6
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Splice and wire-nut in panel, ok ?


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Tandem breakers
Thanks, did not know what they are called.
And yes - thats the set up, two separate cables to one of these.





Being that a tandem breaker only uses one leg coming in from the main pole (correct ??) , can i assume its not a good idea to have too many of them on one side of the panel (the panel is not set up like this, just wondering) ?
Any code or rule of thumb for this ?


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Old 01-09-2009, 12:00 AM   #7
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Splice and wire-nut in panel, ok ?


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Originally Posted by iMisspell View Post
Thanks, did not know what they are called.
And yes - thats the set up, two separate cables to one of these.





Being that a tandem breaker only uses one leg coming in from the main pole (correct ??) , can i assume its not a good idea to have too many of them on one side of the panel (the panel is not set up like this, just wondering) ?
Any code or rule of thumb for this ?


_
Oui, There is a big rule of thumb on this one .,,,

With that breaker you see on the photo you can not run the MWBC from this tandam breaker you must run each circuit with it own netural.

The reason why you can not run the MWBC on this type of breaker on the photo due the L1 and L2 are the same voltage but a nice gotcha is the netrual will be seriously overloaded so let get a example here.,,

L1 run 12 amp load while L2 run 8 amp load and used the MWBC wire with that breaker the netrual will at 20 amp { basised on #14 AWG size } now let push it up near max with 20 amp circuit

L1 run run at 16 amp while L2 run 18 amp the netrual will run 34 amp now that is cooking { based on #12 wire }

With true MWBC circuit the netural current will be much lower like example above L1 @12A , L2 @8A the netural will only carry 4 amps

now you can see why we have to becarefull with MWBC and the type of breakers.

Also.,,,, MAKE sure you double check your breaker box for correct breaker listing some of the breaker box will NOT take tandam breaker.

Merci,Marc
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Old 01-09-2009, 01:57 AM   #8
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Splice and wire-nut in panel, ok ?


Thanks for the info, Marc.

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Originally Posted by frenchelectrican View Post
... With true MWBC circuit ...
Would the following be correct.
Using 14-3, having one hot off one leg coming in from the pole and then having the second hot coming off the other (different leg) and then having the single neutral ?

Some where down the line i will have to run a few (5) (if im counting right) circuits for an addition im building and i planed on doing one of them as a Multi-branch (maybe two).
The multi-branch will be for a hall and smoke/carbon detectors.
What i planed on doing (with more research before ) running a 14-3 up to the attic off two 15amp breakers which would be on two different legs. Then running two 14-2 off that tieing all neutrals together (one from the 14-3 and the other two from the 14-2's) and then feeding the two circuits that way; one for the hall lights and out-lets and the second for the detectors (3 carbon/smoke mix and then a single smoke).
Like i said - i will be doing more research before this, but am i on the right track ?

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Old 01-09-2009, 02:19 AM   #9
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Splice and wire-nut in panel, ok ?


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Originally Posted by iMisspell View Post
Thanks for the info, Marc.


Would the following be correct.
Using 14-3, having one hot off one leg coming in from the pole and then having the second hot coming off the other (different leg) and then having the single neutral ?
Oui qui est la réponse correcte { Yes that is correct answer }


Quote:
Originally Posted by iMisspell View Post
Some where down the line i will have to run a few (5) (if im counting right) circuits for an addition im building and i planed on doing one of them as a Multi-branch (maybe two).
The multi-branch will be for a hall and smoke/carbon detectors.
What i planed on doing (with more research before ) running a 14-3 up to the attic off two 15amp breakers which would be on two different legs. Then running two 14-2 off that tieing all neutrals together (one from the 14-3 and the other two from the 14-2's) and then feeding the two circuits that way; one for the hall lights and out-lets and the second for the detectors (3 carbon/smoke mix and then a single smoke).
Like i said - i will be doing more research before this, but am i on the right track ?

_
However you may run into some issue espcally if your state do adpot the AFCI reqirement then no longer have MWBC at all due the AFCI will not work with MWBC {I know there is one manufacter do make the two pole AFCI but the cost will get ya hard IIRC it will be over 100 USD }

The other thing that your state may required interconnected smoke alarm which it is not a MWBC at all it treat diffrent on this part you will have black and white conductors for power source while red is used for alarm interconnection so one start the alarm the rest go online the same time.

I am sure there are few members here they can chime in more info.

Merci,Marc
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Old 01-09-2009, 02:34 AM   #10
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Splice and wire-nut in panel, ok ?


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Originally Posted by frenchelectrican View Post
However you may run into some issue espcally if your state do adpot the AFCI reqirement then no longer have MWBC at all due the AFCI will not work with MWBC {I know there is one manufacter do make the two pole AFCI but the cost will get ya hard IIRC it will be over 100 USD }
As far as i know its only for bedrooms (and for $30 a breaker, i hope it does not change to more rooms).


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The other thing that your state may required interconnected smoke alarm which it is not a MWBC at all it treat diffrent on this part you will have black and white conductors for power source while red is used for alarm interconnection so one start the alarm the rest go online the same time.
Ahh... yes they do, but there still should be a way, no ?
Runining the 14-2 (which splits off the MWBC) to the first detector then running 14-3 to the other detector's ?
Im only learning about the "trickier" ways a home is wired so this is all new to me... simple out-lets and switchs are my speed


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Old 01-09-2009, 07:20 AM   #11
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Square d makes double pole afcis...but they will cost you a pretty penny.

I saw in this one set up where the "electrician" put a mwbc on a tandem breaker. Can't believe it has lasted this long.
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Old 01-09-2009, 07:28 AM   #12
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Splice and wire-nut in panel, ok ?


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Square d makes double pole afcis...but they will cost you a pretty penny.

I saw in this one set up where the "electrician" put a mwbc on a tandem breaker. Can't believe it has lasted this long.
That was practically my entire panel when I went to re-wire it! Lots of MWBC all on 1/2" breakers but on the same phase! So of course when I rewired it, I put the two wires on the different phases so as to fix the overloaded neutral. I think the kitchen outlets was the only MWBC that wasn't on the same phase, but the other 4 or 5 MWBC's were.
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Old 01-09-2009, 08:56 AM   #13
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Old 01-09-2009, 10:13 AM   #14
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Splice and wire-nut in panel, ok ?


Not sure if this helps your situation but I think you may be able to put a MWBC on a quad breaker. The quads use the 2 outters (top and bottom), and 2 inners (middle) - rather than 2 in a row - so they are on different legs.
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Old 01-09-2009, 01:05 PM   #15
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Splice and wire-nut in panel, ok ?


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Not sure if this helps your situation but I think you may be able to put a MWBC on a quad breaker. The quads use the 2 outters (top and bottom), and 2 inners (middle) - rather than 2 in a row - so they are on different legs.
Only if the handles are tied together, in recent NECs.

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