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Old 07-16-2009, 03:58 PM   #16
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Should use 60amp or 100amp sub-panel?


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Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave View Post
Section 240.4 states the same thing
Section (B) refers to the use of the next higher standard OC device (800a or less)
There are conditions to be met - not a MWBC, not greater then 800a
I do know that this is not allowed on 15a & 20a house circuits

240.4(B) doesn't refer to multiwire branch circuits, it refers to "multioutlet branch circuits supplying receptacles for cord-and-plug-connected portable loads".

This is all a moot point though considering your wire is rated for 65a and not 55a, that's what's putting you up to code. If you have receptacles wired up out there, I don't think you could upsize the breaker to 70a.

Again, I'm not trying to argue, I freely admit that I'm still a student in college with little real world experience in electrical work, so most of everything I know is still theory at this point. I come to this site to try and hone my critical thinking skills for when I do get out there in the field.

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Old 07-16-2009, 04:06 PM   #17
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Should use 60amp or 100amp sub-panel?


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Originally Posted by Atroxx View Post
240.4(B) doesn't refer to multiwire branch circuits, it refers to "multioutlet branch circuits supplying receptacles for cord-and-plug-connected portable loads".

This is all a moot point though considering your wire is rated for 65a and not 55a, that's what's putting you up to code. If you have receptacles wired up out there, I don't think you could upsize the breaker to 70a.
If you had receptacles wired directly into the feeder, then no. But the feeder feeds a subpanel, and that has overcurrent protection for the other circuits. So 240.4(B) applies. And since the wire is rated at 65 A, he could up to 70 and be in compliance. Read 240.4(B) carefully. It is pretty clear.
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Old 07-16-2009, 04:12 PM   #18
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Should use 60amp or 100amp sub-panel?


Beat me to it...Thanks
I did read it multiple times myself...thought what I said was right
A sub-panel is considered a device

Online link to NEC 2008:

http://nfpaweb3.gvpi.net/rrserver/br...NFPASTD/7008SB

You are right on the exclusion being NOT for multioutlet branch circuit
IE the 15a & 20a circuits that I mentioned earlier as being excluded
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Old 07-16-2009, 04:26 PM   #19
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Should use 60amp or 100amp sub-panel?


I see what you're saying, but I wouldn't exactly say that it's "pretty clear". In fact, I'm still pretty confused about the whole thing lol.

240.4(B)(1) says "The conductors being protected are not part of a multioutlet branch circuit supplying receptacles for cord-and-plug-connected portable loads."

That's a cut-and-paste by the way.

Technically speaking, that conductor is still part of the multi-outlet circuit right? Does putting a breaker in there separate the feeder conductor from the circuit?
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Old 07-16-2009, 04:34 PM   #20
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Should use 60amp or 100amp sub-panel?


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I see what you're saying, but I wouldn't exactly say that it's "pretty clear". In fact, I'm still pretty confused about the whole thing lol.

240.4(B)(1) says "The conductors being protected are not part of a multioutlet branch circuit supplying receptacles for cord-and-plug-connected portable loads."

That's a cut-and-paste by the way.

Technically speaking, that conductor is still part of the multi-outlet circuit right? Does putting a breaker in there separate the feeder conductor from the circuit?
The #6 wire is not supplying the outlet circuits, the sub panel wire is
NEC is very confusing, I've seen discussion by Inspectors & Pro's who disagree on certain sections that seem vague

If you go by your interperetation then every wire all the way back to the 200a feed is part of the branch circuit

Many sections are up to interpretation
Code says you can run a 20a circuit direct burial at 12" if protected 1st by a GFCI
My Inspector agreed but stipulated any circuits needed run like this had to have 12" separation
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Old 07-16-2009, 05:31 PM   #21
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Should use 60amp or 100amp sub-panel?


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I see what you're saying, but I wouldn't exactly say that it's "pretty clear". In fact, I'm still pretty confused about the whole thing lol.

240.4(B)(1) says "The conductors being protected are not part of a multioutlet branch circuit supplying receptacles for cord-and-plug-connected portable loads."

That's a cut-and-paste by the way.

Technically speaking, that conductor is still part of the multi-outlet circuit right? Does putting a breaker in there separate the feeder conductor from the circuit?
Electrically, the circuit is continuous. But the insertion of additional overcurrent devices causes the system to be broken into separate parts. From the supply breaker to the subpanel, the wiring is a "feeder". And the supply breaker is only protecting those feeder conductors, and 240.4(B) is applicable. Between the subpanel and an outlet, the wiring is a "branch circuit", and the rules of 210.19 apply.

If the feeder were disconnected from the subpanel, and re-used to supply several receptacles, then it would become a multioutlet branch circuit, and therefore 240.4(B) would no longer be applicable. Does that clear it up any?
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Old 07-16-2009, 06:00 PM   #22
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Should use 60amp or 100amp sub-panel?


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Electrically, the circuit is continuous. But the insertion of additional overcurrent devices causes the system to be broken into separate parts. From the supply breaker to the subpanel, the wiring is a "feeder". And the supply breaker is only protecting those feeder conductors, and 240.4(B) is applicable. Between the subpanel and an outlet, the wiring is a "branch circuit", and the rules of 210.19 apply.

If the feeder were disconnected from the subpanel, and re-used to supply several receptacles, then it would become a multioutlet branch circuit, and therefore 240.4(B) would no longer be applicable. Does that clear it up any?
It does actually. Thanks for your patience and pardon my ignorance, but like I said, that's why I come here, to learn and maybe help out where I can
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Old 07-16-2009, 06:30 PM   #23
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Should use 60amp or 100amp sub-panel?


Hey, I learned something too
That's why I'm here - to learn more

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