Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Electrical

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 12-06-2008, 05:20 PM   #1
DIY'er
 
jamiedolan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Neenah, Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 2,032
Rewards Points: 0
Blog Entries: 2
Share |
Default

Shorted / Thiner GFCI?


"Shorter" - Sorry for the typo in the title.

I've run into a problem a couple times now, in standard old metal outlet boxes (2 -1/2" deep) with conduit connecting in the top or bottom of the box, GFCI outlets do not fit in the box.

Does anyone make GFCI's that will fit in these boxes. Most of the 3" deep metal boxes I have, have the KO around the same spot, I haven't tried it, but I bet that if conduit is connected to one of those KO's with a bushing on it, that a GF is not going to fit in there either.

Maybe I am going to have to beat up the walls when installing GFCI's and put in 4"x4"'s with a mud ring, they work just fine.

I've been working with 20A GFCI outlets, not sure if the 15A and 20A GFCI's are any different in sizes.

Any smaller GFCI's out there or any boxes that are better / easier for old work than installing a 4x4 with mudring?

Thanks
Jamie


Last edited by jamiedolan; 12-06-2008 at 06:48 PM.
jamiedolan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2008, 06:21 PM   #2
My License Ain't 4 Sale..
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Atlanta, Ga/Hamilton, Al
Posts: 1,813
Rewards Points: 0
Default

Shorted / Thiner GFCI?


I'm not sure how you are getting a conduit into an old work box, but that's none of my business! But maybe you can find the two-piece EMT connectors at a supply house. Barring that, can you terminate the conduit into a standard connector, then change to a rigid coupling and attach to the box with a chase nipple?

InPhase277 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2008, 06:46 PM   #3
DIY'er
 
jamiedolan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Neenah, Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 2,032
Rewards Points: 0
Blog Entries: 2
Default

Shorted / Thiner GFCI?


Quote:
Originally Posted by InPhase277 View Post
I'm not sure how you are getting a conduit into an old work box, but that's none of my business! But maybe you can find the two-piece EMT connectors at a supply house. Barring that, can you terminate the conduit into a standard connector, then change to a rigid coupling and attach to the box with a chase nipple?
Magic! LOL.. Large Attic space against my whole room wall(s) the legenth of the house upstairs.

Shorted / Thiner GFCI?-img_4712.jpg

Shorted / Thiner GFCI?-img_4713.jpg

On the one I just did today, I ended up a GFCI in the attic (it is a large walk in attic that is close to the bar area the outlets are in so it is not a big deal at all to reset) just so I could get it done and didn't have to mess with that changing that box in the finished wall.

I think that a chase nipple might stay low enough to the bottom of the box to give me room.

When you say a 2 piece EMT connector are you talking about the compression connectors or something different? I think you must mean something different, but can't quite picture it.
Thanks
Jamie

Last edited by jamiedolan; 12-06-2008 at 06:49 PM.
jamiedolan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2008, 07:00 PM   #4
My License Ain't 4 Sale..
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Atlanta, Ga/Hamilton, Al
Posts: 1,813
Rewards Points: 0
Default

Shorted / Thiner GFCI?


I believe it is RACO that makes the two-piece fitting, maybe it is AFC. Maybe several manufacturers. Any way, the connector is kinda like a pre-made rigid coupling with a chase nipple. It has a set screw to connect to the pipe, and a threaded throat. Then you use a chase nipple-like male insert from the inside of the box that screws into the throat. Very low profile inside the box. Another question is, why don't you just use cable now that you have all your homeruns up from the basement?
InPhase277 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2008, 07:35 PM   #5
DIY'er
 
jamiedolan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Neenah, Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 2,032
Rewards Points: 0
Blog Entries: 2
Default

Shorted / Thiner GFCI?


Quote:
Originally Posted by InPhase277 View Post
I believe it is RACO that makes the two-piece fitting, maybe it is AFC. Maybe several manufacturers. Any way, the connector is kinda like a pre-made rigid coupling with a chase nipple. It has a set screw to connect to the pipe, and a threaded throat. Then you use a chase nipple-like male insert from the inside of the box that screws into the throat. Very low profile inside the box. Another question is, why don't you just use cable now that you have all your homeruns up from the basement?
These 2 bar outlets, along with the kitchen where fed by 12-2 WITHOUT ground. There was a open piece of undersized 14 gage thhn that was attached to the boxes, but then ran to who know where, but that piece of thhn didn't make it back to the panel, and wasn't providing a ground path when I tested to it. The way the wiring was done just made me uncomfortable, espically since we run heavier loads in that bar area like a pizza oven.

So that is actually a home run to the main, which is really kind of silly, since I could have run it off the new kitchen sub panel that is 20 feet away. I would have done that, and should have just gone and bought the 6awg and turn on that panel. This morning I just decided I was sick of running extension cords to the fridge and pizza oven, and I had 12awg thhn just sitting there on the wire caddy.

I also don't want to put too much on the kitchen sub, but I think that is kind of silly to worry about. I only ran 3/4" emt to it, so I am going to be limited to 60A, but it is only going to feed the drops to the kitchen, not the oven, DW, or espresso machine. So it's loads are only going to be lighting, microwave, counter top plugs, range vent hood,etc.

Sorry for all the details.

I am going to rewire the upstairs bath, just down from this bar area, it is on a shared 15a with many other rooms. I will wait and run that one from the attic sub since it has no urgency to getting it changed over. I could just sleve some NM in the exposed attic area to feed the bath if I need to, but it sounds like your solution with the chase nipple will work just fine if I run thhn.

Attic sub panel, and Junction boxes for kitchen lighting, outlets, etc. (5 set of switches lights, 3 banks of switches, lots of connections)

(Sorry about the smurf, (it isn't exposed at all), You don't like the smurf tube very well do you?)

Shorted / Thiner GFCI?-img_4711.jpg

Smurf drops into the kitchen sofit boxes and some get connected to lights, a then the others get run down the walls to switch boxes, outlets, etc.
Shorted / Thiner GFCI?-img_4710.jpg
Shorted / Thiner GFCI?-img_4709.jpg

Jamie
jamiedolan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2008, 07:52 PM   #6
DIYer
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Virginia
Posts: 910
Rewards Points: 0
Default

Shorted / Thiner GFCI?


Quote:
Originally Posted by InPhase277 View Post
Another question is, why don't you just use cable now that you have all your homeruns up from the basement?
He's allergic to cable.
Gigs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2008, 08:07 PM   #7
DIY'er
 
jamiedolan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Neenah, Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 2,032
Rewards Points: 0
Blog Entries: 2
Default

Shorted / Thiner GFCI?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigs View Post
He's allergic to cable.
LOL. For the bar sink run I would have had to drill through dozens of load bearing studs and joists to keep it from being exposed. The attic space is walk in and really would expose the romex to physical damage, as it is actively used for storage, firewood, etc.

About 2 weeks ago I hung our Christmas lights and I had prevously ran romex 14-3 (the 3 was for future use for sofit lights so they could be switched, it was not intended as a NWBC) to the soffit outlets for the lights. I also ran romex in the sofit 50 feet along the front of the house (inside the sofit). Both of the runs were difficult.

The christmas light display pulled too much for one circuit. I ended up turning the 14-3 into a MWBC, but was unable to have it GFCI protected due to the way the wiring was run (which would have been fine if it was used for switching and not a MW).

Conduit is cheap. $2 for a 10' piece of EMT, about the same for smurf. I was so annoyed with my christmas light power mess up that I said; I am just doing these conduit runs once and then I can easily change the wires as necessary.

So nothing against romex in non-exposed locations, just allergic to doing stuff over and over and over again. (plus once the new rock and plaster is up, changes get much much harder).

I gotta go do something I am typing too much.
Jamie
jamiedolan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2008, 08:07 PM   #8
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Iowa
Posts: 1,543
Rewards Points: 0
Default

Shorted / Thiner GFCI?


Quote:
Originally Posted by jamiedolan View Post
These 2 bar outlets, along with the kitchen where fed by 12-2 WITHOUT ground. There was a open piece of undersized 14 gage thhn that was attached to the boxes, but then ran to who know where, but that piece of thhn didn't make it back to the panel, and wasn't providing a ground path when I tested to it. The way the wiring was done just made me uncomfortable, espically since we run heavier loads in that bar area like a pizza oven.

So that is actually a home run to the main, which is really kind of silly, since I could have run it off the new kitchen sub panel that is 20 feet away. I would have done that, and should have just gone and bought the 6awg and turn on that panel. This morning I just decided I was sick of running extension cords to the fridge and pizza oven, and I had 12awg thhn just sitting there on the wire caddy.

I also don't want to put too much on the kitchen sub, but I think that is kind of silly to worry about. I only ran 3/4" emt to it, so I am going to be limited to 60A, but it is only going to feed the drops to the kitchen, not the oven, DW, or espresso machine. So it's loads are only going to be lighting, microwave, counter top plugs, range vent hood,etc.

Sorry for all the details.

I am going to rewire the upstairs bath, just down from this bar area, it is on a shared 15a with many other rooms. I will wait and run that one from the attic sub since it has no urgency to getting it changed over. I could just sleve some NM in the exposed attic area to feed the bath if I need to, but it sounds like your solution with the chase nipple will work just fine if I run thhn.

Attic sub panel, and Junction boxes for kitchen lighting, outlets, etc. (5 set of switches lights, 3 banks of switches, lots of connections)

(Sorry about the smurf, (it isn't exposed at all), You don't like the smurf tube very well do you?)

Attachment 6432

Smurf drops into the kitchen sofit boxes and some get connected to lights, a then the others get run down the walls to switch boxes, outlets, etc.
Attachment 6433
Attachment 6434

Jamie
You should check your local fire code about the spray foam.

You might need to use fire blocking caulk.
rgsgww is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2008, 08:13 PM   #9
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,497
Rewards Points: 0
Default

Shorted / Thiner GFCI?


How on earth did you cram that GFCI into that little box?

Anyway they make electrical box extenders or you can use a double gang box with a single gang plaster ring...
http://electrical.hardwarestore.com/...xtensions.aspx
Billy_Bob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2008, 08:34 PM   #10
DIY'er
 
jamiedolan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Neenah, Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 2,032
Rewards Points: 0
Blog Entries: 2
Default

Shorted / Thiner GFCI?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy_Bob View Post
How on earth did you cram that GFCI into that little box?

Anyway they make electrical box extenders or you can use a double gang box with a single gang plaster ring...
http://electrical.hardwarestore.com/...xtensions.aspx
The box in the photo the the GFCI is in is larger than the boxes installed in the wall and the GFCI's do fit in the box that I have it in as long as you don't have a bunch of wire nuts in the back of the box. I don't know where the boxes came from that I have like the one in the photo, it has a UL stamp. However they have no hole for a ground screw, so I have to drill and tap for a ground screw. It is still a close fit, It might still violate fill capacity in that box. I can add an extension to that box.

Thanks for the link
Jamie
jamiedolan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2008, 08:39 PM   #11
DIY'er
 
jamiedolan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Neenah, Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 2,032
Rewards Points: 0
Blog Entries: 2
Default

Shorted / Thiner GFCI?


Quote:
Originally Posted by rgsgww View Post
You should check your local fire code about the spray foam.

You might need to use fire blocking caulk.
Thanks, I will double check, it is all getting closed into the sofit boxes with plaster, not sure if that will make a difference in terms of fire stop. The old lights were fed with BX/MC through a couple big open holes, they were just dumping cold air into the sofit boxes in the kitchen.
Thanks
jamie
jamiedolan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2008, 10:54 AM   #12
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,506
Rewards Points: 0
Default

Shorted / Thiner GFCI?


Jamie, The smurf looks as good as any job I have ever seen performed by an electrician. Applause!
J. V. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2008, 11:04 AM   #13
DIY'er
 
jamiedolan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Neenah, Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 2,032
Rewards Points: 0
Blog Entries: 2
Default

Shorted / Thiner GFCI?


Quote:
Originally Posted by J. V. View Post
Jamie, The smurf looks as good as any job I have ever seen performed by an electrician. Applause!
Thank You! :-)

Jamie
jamiedolan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2008, 01:39 PM   #14
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Iowa
Posts: 1,543
Rewards Points: 0
Default

Shorted / Thiner GFCI?


Smurf looks good

rgsgww is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Freezer tripping GFCI davidclements Appliances 57 08-13-2014 08:14 PM
new gfci on new circuit pops rtoni Electrical 39 11-15-2008 10:18 AM
GFCI Question Mdbuilder Electrical 6 06-19-2008 03:15 PM
GFCI questions 5circles Electrical 4 11-05-2007 08:24 PM




Top of Page | View New Posts

Copyright © 2003-2014 Escalate Media. All Rights Reserved.