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Old 01-29-2010, 11:38 PM   #16
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Short Wires in an Overfill


ah....I only added the .5 on the ground in my head
That's why I usually use the calculator

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Old 01-29-2010, 11:54 PM   #17
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Short Wires in an Overfill


There are two circuits:
1. 15 amp circuit wired with 12/2.
2. 20 amp circuit wired with 10/2.

The purpose of the junction box is to branch both circuits to a pair of outlets.

So we have three sets of wires:
1. Incomming power
2. Branch to outlets
3. Branch to next j-box.

A seperate ground wire was run through the conduit for each circuit, so for simplisity, think of it as all three branchs are NM cable.

So here is the physical wire count:
2 circuits * 3 branches * 2 conductors = 12 conductors. 4 red wire nuts (20 amp hot, 20 amp neutral, 15 amp hot, 15 amp neutral).
2 circuits * 3 branches * 1 ground = 6 grounds wires (plus a pigtail to ground the box). It took 2 wire nuts to bond ALL the grounds together.


The spacer block was just the right depth (about 1-1/2") so that the conduit starts flush against the cinder block about 2 inches outside the frame. An offset nipple was used to enter the j-box for the outlets.
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Old 01-30-2010, 12:25 AM   #18
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Short Wires in an Overfill


so, just counting hots and neuts, you have 6 #12 and 6 #10, yes

If so, then you need 31 c.i of box. to make it legal, you would need to either change the box to any common depth of a 4 11/16" square or toss an extension ring on what you have.


as I stated previously, the wires are too short but in practicality, that are not so short as to cause them to be taught and since they are so short, they do not take up as much room so, I would consider leaving it as it.

It's not legal but it isn't unsafe either.


btw: blue wire nuts

One thing I cannot see if you have it or not but you MUST bond the EGC's to the box.
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Old 01-30-2010, 12:36 AM   #19
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Short Wires in an Overfill


Here's an overview shot of the section where the conduit it located. Each box on the wall has a gray colored 20 amp outlet on the left and a white 15 amp outlet on the right.


The second image shows another mistake I made. I drilled the holes through the studs too low. That ment there wasn't a simple path to get the wire stapled within 4" of the box without extream bends in the wire. These loops were the best solution I could come up with. I did get the opportunity to show this image to the inspector. I was suprised when he had no problems with it so long as I was following the rules of stapled with 4 inches of the box. However, this section I'm going to redo anyway. The main reason is because I'm once again well over fill limits, but since this was more than just a junction box, I did have longer wires in there. I remeber having some difficulty trying to stuff all those wires back in the box.

By contrast, the j-boxes I'm asking about I didn't have an issue with stuffing the wires. They fit just fine. But it was accomplished at the "expense" of making the wires too short. It just took some precision wire cutting to get everything in just the right spot.
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Old 01-30-2010, 12:49 AM   #20
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Short Wires in an Overfill


Quote:
Originally Posted by nap View Post
One thing I cannot see if you have it or not but you MUST bond the EGC's to the box.
It is.

You have to squint... but it's there. You can just make out part of the green screw. It's on the left of the green wire as it comes out of the conduit. If you look at the green wire nut on the left, you will see that there are four wires comming down, and one of them seems to just disapper in the background... it's the one going to the grounding screw.
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Old 01-30-2010, 01:35 AM   #21
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Short Wires in an Overfill


it's within a foot of the box and every 4 1/2 feet after that for securing NM.

that still would not remedy your problem though, just FYI.


do you have 2 egc's going down to the receps? You only want and need one.

you should not have cut the wires but merely folded them to fit. as was stated previously, you have to have at least 6" free length from where the wire leaves the sheath or conduit and it must extend at least 3" beyond the face of the box.

and I don't see a 1 hole strap on the conduit on the set up to the left of the toolbox. It maybe there and just not visible to me. just FYI, you have to have attachment no more than 3' from a box so you could have actually used only 1 strap on each of those conduits but personally, I like the 2.

instead of the covers you have on those boxes, you might like these:



and the screw on at least the one faceplate I can see is not vertical. It looks kind of off angle like 45 or so. Just not acceptable
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Old 01-30-2010, 02:00 AM   #22
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Short Wires in an Overfill


Actually, if you look carefully at the conduit on the far left, you will see that it is two hole strap, and all three are done identically.
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Old 01-30-2010, 09:23 AM   #23
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Short Wires in an Overfill


What is the distance from the panel to the garage that you needed #10 wire ?
I would have simply run a different circuit in each quad box instead
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Old 01-30-2010, 09:37 AM   #24
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Short Wires in an Overfill


Quote:
Originally Posted by HooKooDooKu View Post
Actually, if you look carefully at the conduit on the far left, you will see that it is two hole strap, and all three are done identically.
I see the straps on the far left and the far right. I just can't see them on the one in the middle. Could be there, just can' see 'em.
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Old 01-30-2010, 10:11 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave View Post
What is the distance from the panel to the garage that you needed #10 wire ?
I would have simply run a different circuit in each quad box instead
The intension was that these were to be POWER circuits for running current and future tools, like a table saw and other high amperage devices. So I decided to over size the wire. I knew code allowed for that.

The idea behind the circuits was to have plenty of outlets conveniently located, and I would have the choise of the 20 amp circuit or the 15 amp circuit at each location.

Aa for the strap...well the image has been scaled way down to easily fit on the forum web page. When it came to pointing out the grounding screw in the j-box, I had to go back to the original unscaled image to find it.

The only thing I can't recall is why I did quad boxes on the wall and not the studs.... I can only guess that the single boxes are actually easier to deal with, but I didn't want to run 6 runs of conduit.
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Old 01-30-2010, 10:23 AM   #26
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Short Wires in an Overfill


My point is no oversizing was needed unless you are going a great distance
I've used my table saw & other tools at the end of a 100' 16g extension cord without any problems
I even ran my 18.6a pool pump for months at the end of a 100' 12g extension cord while running a sub to the pool cabana

I would never run a 15a circuit in a garage, especially not for tools
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Old 01-30-2010, 04:52 PM   #27
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Short Wires in an Overfill


Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave View Post
My point is no oversizing was needed unless you are going a great distance
I've used my table saw & other tools at the end of a 100' 16g extension cord without any problems
I even ran my 18.6a pool pump for months at the end of a 100' 12g extension cord while running a sub to the pool cabana

I would never run a 15a circuit in a garage, especially not for tools
You have to realize that both circuits are fed from that "unorthodox" sub-panel. There is a 10/2 wire feeding the subpanel, with that wire protected by a 30amp breaker. The subpanel, though designed for two leg, was wired as a single leg panel. The subpanel then has the 20 and 15 amp circuits fed from it. The only purpose for the 2nd circuit (15 amp) was to power lighting and "light duty" tools and radio without loading down the wires feeding the "heavy duty" stuff. Basically, every 20 amp outlet has a sister 15 amp outlet beside it.
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Old 01-30-2010, 05:09 PM   #28
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Short Wires in an Overfill


It really doesn't matter where it's fed from
The only thing that really matters is circuit distance
That is where you have voltage drop & that is why you upsize teh wire
12g wire has an ampacity rating much higher then the 20a circuit rating
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Old 01-30-2010, 05:30 PM   #29
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Short Wires in an Overfill


Quote:
Originally Posted by nap View Post
I see the straps on the far left and the far right. I just can't see them on the one in the middle. Could be there, just can' see 'em.
Just looked at the straps in person, and now I know why you can't see them. They've been painted over.

We recently had a flood in the basement and the water appeared to have entered under the wall where you can't see the strap. Well after 10 years, the drylock paint on that wall was suffering and I put a new coat of drylock on it, and I just painted right on over the strap.

The other wall where you can see the strap was in much better condition, and it didn't recieve a new coat of drylock.
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Old 01-30-2010, 06:21 PM   #30
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Short Wires in an Overfill


That ground that is coiled around the other grounds... does it go up into the nut or is it just twisted? If it doesn't go in the nut that's technically a violation.

Anyway I'm with kbsparky... not worth bothering the inspector over. Put an extension ring on it if you want to meet fill. The wires are a little short but not terrible.

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