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Old 07-06-2009, 08:01 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by kbsparky View Post
A bad "concentric" can cause the symptoms you described here, which is the high-voltage "neutral" connection on the primary side of the utility transformer.
"Transformer interwinding insulation construction which comprises a plurality of concentric spaced cylinders of insulating pressboard"

http://books.google.com/books?id=paP...esult&resnum=2

?


Last edited by Yoyizit; 07-06-2009 at 08:08 PM.
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Old 07-06-2009, 08:02 PM   #32
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Hey look on the bright side, I'm sure it wakes you up very well in the morning!
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Old 07-06-2009, 08:14 PM   #33
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Concentric also refers to the outer conductor of medium Voltage cable, which is commonly used by utilities to feed their step-down transformers.
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Old 07-06-2009, 08:16 PM   #34
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What is it with the damn duplicate posts.. deleted.

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Old 07-06-2009, 08:17 PM   #35
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It may be the neutral, but in every case that I have seen of a lost neutral, the primary symptom is some lights going bright and others dimming when a high-draw appliance is turned on. Being that the only connection to the earth from the shower drain is through water in plastic pipes, it seems like Kirchoff's law would dictate that if there is any noticeable voltage present at that connection, there MUST be lights blinking and dimming all over the place IF the service neutral is open.

If the OP hasn't noticed that symptom, then it is almost certain the service neutral is intact.
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Old 07-06-2009, 08:25 PM   #36
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All the more reason for the POCO to check their primary connections.
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Old 07-06-2009, 10:04 PM   #37
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Anything is possible and I see no problem with having the power company check out the primary side of the transformer because it is often the source of neural to earth current. For those who may not be aware of it the primary neutral is connected to the secondary neutral in most transformers that are not isolation transformers and they share the center tap grounding conductor to the ground rod. There has been lots of discussion about this being changed. If the source is the primary neutral the poco will install a isolator device to stop the NEV. Other than what inphase said... my problem with it being NEV from the utility is there is no connection to earth with any grounding conductor to the metal water pipes in the home...he says the pipes are metal once the plastic pipes from the well enter the home and that the pipes are not bonded to the service neutral. My opinion also is that if it was NEV he would not be losing 45 volts by disconnecting the water heater branch circuit.

But we are not there so assumptions abound with any advice we may give.... so I do agree with KBsparky to have the power company check their stuff.

A current measurement on the grounding conductor to the ground rod that exists would be interesting to know with the main opened.

I'm not sure if NEV (STRAY VOLTAGE) could use the water in the well and pipes to produce the shocks in the shower but I would say it is possible and some plumbers swear that it will. I'd certainly have it checked out by the poco.
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Old 07-06-2009, 10:19 PM   #38
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Maybe he should bond the well water ....heck the NEC is now requiring you to bond your pool water....

I'll just say to the OP that you can quickly get overwhelmed as a DIY to solve a problem like you or having if it cannot be corrected as inphase has already said and someone with more experience needs to be contacted. Having the poco confirm (as kbsparky suggests) that there is no NEV or primary/secondary neutral problems will go a long way in your peace of mind.
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Old 07-07-2009, 06:11 AM   #39
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Thanks to all. I'm calling the power company today to get them to look at this.
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Old 07-07-2009, 09:22 AM   #40
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Your water lines should not be grounded. Even if your lines in the house are copper. I'd say that is your problem. Ran into a problem like this a few years back. Only they had replace a small section of pipe outside with plastic. Took a lot of head scratching. They were getting shocked everytime they were in the shower and the phone rang.
The thought of someone getting a shock when the phone rang was too funny! Thanx for that
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Old 07-07-2009, 01:55 PM   #41
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The electric company came by today and said everything was O.K. on their side.

I have an electrician coming over tonight but have a quick question.

This electricians first response was to say to connect the water pipes to the supply ground. Also check the water heater elements. He will check things over then we will go from there. But I have a quick question.

Stubbie answered in post 20 "you must bond the metal water pipes to grounded conductor at the service equipment!!! So that a breaker will open if they get energized."

?? Is the reference to a "circuit breaker" above meaning any of the current breakers in my electric box, or is this a separate breaker added in the bonding process ??

I just want to be knowedgable when I meet with the electrician tonight.

Thanks in advance.
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Old 07-07-2009, 02:01 PM   #42
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The electric company came by today and said everything was O.K. on their side.

I have an electrician coming over tonight but have a quick question.

This electricians first response was to say to connect the water pipes to the supply ground. Also check the water heater elements. He will check things over then we will go from there. But I have a quick question.

Stubbie answered in post 20 "you must bond the metal water pipes to grounded conductor at the service equipment!!! So that a breaker will open if they get energized."

?? Is the reference to a "circuit breaker" above meaning any of the current breakers in my electric box, or is this a separate breaker added in the bonding process ??

I just want to be knowedgable when I meet with the electrician tonight.

Thanks in advance.
No, it means that the metal water pipes must be bonded to the neutral at the service. In layman's terms, this would simply be called grounding the water line at the panel. What Stubbie's reference meant is that we ground the pipes so that if they are contacted by a live wire, there will be a circuit completed, and the breaker for the offending circuit will trip.

What the electrician will do is likely nothing more than what I describe in post #23.

Last edited by InPhase277; 07-07-2009 at 02:04 PM.
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Old 07-07-2009, 02:08 PM   #43
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They were getting shocked everytime they were in the shower and the phone rang.
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The thought of someone getting a shock when the phone rang was too funny!

Can you hear me NOW ??
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Old 07-07-2009, 02:40 PM   #44
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Thanks InPhase277. I should know tonight what is going on and if this does the job.
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Old 07-07-2009, 06:03 PM   #45
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FWIW

I like to think of bonding as it relates to ground (earth) as the connection of a metal conductor..ie...to a grounding conductor (that is not part of a system circuit) that in turn is intentionally in contact with the earth via an electrode or whatever for grounding purposes. Bonding provides electrical continuity nothing more nothing less for whatever purpose is intended.

Using the term grounded to me means connected to earth or connected/bonded to a conductive material that is intentionally connected to earth. So grounded and grounding to me are basically the same thing as far as the NEC is concerned.

Grounded Conductor is a system or circuit conductor that is intentionally grounded (earthed).

Connecting or bonding a circuit conductor to the service grounded conductor makes it a grounded intentional current carrying conductor or grounded leg or neutral.

A non circuit conductor that is connected to earth even though it is bonded to the service grounded conductor like a grounding conductor of the electrode system is simply grounded or earthed. It is not a 'grounded conductor'.

The equipment grounding conductor is oddly named IMO ...
Grounded you defined 95%! GROUNDING conductor, as defined by the NEC is one that EFFECTS grounding (i.e the conductor from the Service panel to the Grounding rod!

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