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Old 04-15-2013, 05:41 AM   #1
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Shed Wiring


Hello

I have a barn that has a panel connected to the main electrical panel in the house. This barn panel has two 50 amp breakers and two 30 amp breakers. One of the 30 amp breakers is wired for 120V. The other 30 amp has no wires connected. I have a shed next to the barn I want to wire. The shed might have things like TV, computer, DVD player, lights and a small wall unit air conditioner/heater, totaling about 2860 watts. So this is 2 circuits, 1 dedicated to the air conditioner/heater and 1 to everything else.

My question is can 15-amp receptacles in the shed be used with the 30-amp circuit in the barn or would I need to go with 20-amp to the 30-amp?

This idea is to have a shed panel with the two 15 or 20-amp circuits then connecting that panel directly to the 30-amp breaker. Or can that 30-amp breaker be replaced with a 15-amp?

http://www.samsclub.com/sams/lg-7-00....ip?navAction=

Thank you

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Old 04-15-2013, 06:39 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by shedwire View Post
Hello

I have a barn that has a panel connected to the main electrical panel in the house. This barn panel has two 50 amp breakers and two 30 amp breakers. One of the 30 amp breakers is wired for 120V. The other 30 amp has no wires connected. I have a shed next to the barn I want to wire. The shed might have things like TV, computer, DVD player, lights and a small wall unit air conditioner/heater, totaling about 2860 watts. So this is 2 circuits, 1 dedicated to the air conditioner/heater and 1 to everything else.

My question is can 15-amp receptacles in the shed be used with the 30-amp circuit in the barn or would I need to go with 20-amp to the 30-amp?

This idea is to have a shed panel with the two 15 or 20-amp circuits then connecting that panel directly to the 30-amp breaker. Or can that 30-amp breaker be replaced with a 15-amp?

http://www.samsclub.com/sams/lg-7-00....ip?navAction=

Thank you
NO ..

14 wire = 15 amp breaker
12 wire = 20 amp breaker
10 wire = 30 amp breaker

thats it ...

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Old 04-15-2013, 06:39 AM   #3
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Shed Wiring


Quote:
Originally Posted by shedwire View Post
Hello

I have a barn that has a panel connected to the main electrical panel in the house. This barn panel has two 50 amp breakers and two 30 amp breakers. One of the 30 amp breakers is wired for 120V. The other 30 amp has no wires connected. I have a shed next to the barn I want to wire. The shed might have things like TV, computer, DVD player, lights and a small wall unit air conditioner/heater, totaling about 2860 watts. So this is 2 circuits, 1 dedicated to the air conditioner/heater and 1 to everything else.

My question is can 15-amp receptacles in the shed be used with the 30-amp circuit in the barn or would I need to go with 20-amp to the 30-amp?

This idea is to have a shed panel with the two 15 or 20-amp circuits then connecting that panel directly to the 30-amp breaker. Or can that 30-amp breaker be replaced with a 15-amp?

http://www.samsclub.com/sams/lg-7-00....ip?navAction=

Thank you
NO ..

14 wire = 15 amp breaker
12 wire = 20 amp breaker
10 wire = 30 amp breaker

thats it ...


yes you can replace the breakers
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Old 04-15-2013, 01:06 PM   #4
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Shed Wiring


If it were me I would replace the extra 30A barn breaker with a full-size double-pole 20A breaker and run 12-3 UF wire (12ga, black+red+white+green Underground Feeder) to the shed. This is called a MWBC or Multi-Wire Branch Circuit and is the least expensive option because you do not have to install a panel and breakers at the shed. Code considers a MWBC a "single circuit" for which no breaker box is required. However, at the point where the buried wire comes up out of the ground, it should be in a conduit affixed to the side of the shed and you should install a double-pole flip switch ($5) and a weatherproof cover ($5) to act as a disconnect before the wire enters the shed. Cheap, easy.

Of course, if you want to install a breaker panel at the shed, you can, but for what you want it sounds to me like overkill...
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Old 04-15-2013, 02:57 PM   #5
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I. More Than One Building or Other Structure
225.30 Number of Supplies.
Where more than one building or other structure is on the same property and under single management, each additional building or other structure that is served by a branch circuit or feeder on the load side of the service disconnecting means shall be supplied by only one feeder or branch circuit unless permitted in 225.30(A) through (E). For the purpose of this section, a multiwire branch circuit shall be considered a single circuit.

225.31 Disconnecting Means.
Means shall be provided for disconnecting all ungrounded conductors that supply or pass through the building or structure.
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Old 09-28-2013, 04:48 PM   #6
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I. More Than One Building or Other Structure
225.30 Number of Supplies.
Where more than one building or other structure is on the same property and under single management, each additional building or other structure that is served by a branch circuit or feeder on the load side of the service disconnecting means shall be supplied by only one feeder or branch circuit unless permitted in 225.30(A) through (E). For the purpose of this section, a multiwire branch circuit shall be considered a single circuit.

225.31 Disconnecting Means.
Means shall be provided for disconnecting all ungrounded conductors that supply or pass through the building or structure.

Thank you for the detailed information. Where it reads "...only one..." does this mean only one circuit can be added to the service panel at the house? Which in this case would be the barn.

Thank you again.
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Old 09-28-2013, 05:32 PM   #7
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Only one circuit or feeder can supply the shed. You can have multiple circuits in the shed.
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Old 09-28-2013, 05:57 PM   #8
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A MWBC is legal.
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Old 09-29-2013, 09:37 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Philly Master View Post
I. More Than One Building or Other Structure
225.30 Number of Supplies.
Where more than one building or other structure is on the same property and under single management, each additional building or other structure that is served by a branch circuit or feeder on the load side of the service disconnecting means shall be supplied by only one feeder or branch circuit unless permitted in 225.30(A) through (E). [B]For the purpose of this section, a multiwire branch circuit shall be considered a single circuit.
[/B]

225.31 Disconnecting Means.
Means shall be provided for disconnecting all ungrounded conductors that supply or pass through the building or structure.


Quote:
Originally Posted by shedwire View Post
Thank you for the detailed information. Where it reads "...only one..." does this mean only one circuit can be added to the service panel at the house? Which in this case would be the barn.

Thank you again.

...............
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Old 11-01-2013, 02:47 AM   #10
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If it were me I would replace the extra 30A barn breaker with a full-size double-pole 20A breaker and run 12-3 UF wire (12ga, black+red+white+green Underground Feeder) to the shed. This is called a MWBC or Multi-Wire Branch Circuit and is the least expensive option because you do not have to install a panel and breakers at the shed. Code considers a MWBC a "single circuit" for which no breaker box is required. However, at the point where the buried wire comes up out of the ground, it should be in a conduit affixed to the side of the shed and you should install a double-pole flip switch ($5) and a weatherproof cover ($5) to act as a disconnect before the wire enters the shed. Cheap, easy.

Of course, if you want to install a breaker panel at the shed, you can, but for what you want it sounds to me like overkill...

Hello

I am finally getting closer to starting this little project. I was reading Tylernt's idea of how I could run the wire.
If I have 2 circuits one at 1500 watts, for the air conditioner and the other at 1360 watts together equaling the estimated 2860 total watts, could a 15 A breaker be used since it can take 1800 watts per circuit (15 A*120 V)?
What would be the reason for choosing the 20A?

Thank You
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Old 11-01-2013, 03:50 AM   #11
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... What would be the reason for choosing the 20A?
Because people never complain that they have too much power. The price difference between #14 and #12 wire is minimal, especially compared to your labor investment. And the larger wire will help with voltage drop(VD).

VD can really kick the crap out of a/c compressors. Electronics aren't too fond of it either. Heating coils could care less.

Assuming the barn was wired right and based on code recommendations then ... These are the maximum lengths of cable from the barn panel to the a/c unit. #14 wire is 60 feet. #12 wire is 96 feet.

VD can be mitigated two ways, larger wire or higher voltage.

Larger wire: The must have parts of a MWBC are the 20A breaker and the disconnect. Any size wire can be run between those two parts.

Higher voltage: A 240 volt a/c unit with the same output specs would help.

Last edited by Glennsparky; 11-01-2013 at 04:13 AM.
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Old 11-01-2013, 04:44 AM   #12
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Sorry. I ran the MWBC numbers thinking the largest load that would care about VD was the a/c compressor. 720 watts at 115V equals 6.25A on one leg.(from the LG website.)

My mistake. The electronics at 1360W is 11.33 amps on the other leg. That's not even including the minifridge, blender and microwave.

The distances for 11.33A are 34' for #14 and 54' for #12.

Last edited by Glennsparky; 11-01-2013 at 04:58 AM.
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Old 11-01-2013, 06:50 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by shedwire View Post
Hello

I am finally getting closer to starting this little project. I was reading Tylernt's idea of how I could run the wire.
If I have 2 circuits one at 1500 watts, for the air conditioner and the other at 1360 watts together equaling the estimated 2860 total watts, could a 15 A breaker be used since it can take 1800 watts per circuit (15 A*120 V)?
What would be the reason for choosing the 20A?

Thank You
the best way ...IMHO not knowing your budget or what actually will be in the shed when its done would be to replace the 2pole 30amp with a 2 pole 20.... run 10/3 UF wire to a small sub panel ... the # 10 wire will take care of the volage drop for what you want to use ...if 100' or less ... that would be 100 of 'WIRE' ....
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Old 11-11-2013, 06:48 AM   #14
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My budget is low, yet I have purchased things to make the job complete with some design modifications. For example I covered the shed with Tyvek house wrap to help keep dust out.

The electrical consuming devices inside will be 2 computers and monitors, CD player, radio/receiver with speakers, TV, VHS/DVD player, portable air conditioner/heater (1500 W), 4 duplex outlets, 4 basic ceiling lights (60-75 W), and 3 fluorescent wall lights (15-20 W). The total wire distance from the barn to shed is 55 ft. including around corners and in the ground. The wire will be run inside the barn most of the distance and only the last 4 ft. in the ground, because the shed is only 4 ft. away from the barn.

Will I need UF type if only 4 ft. of wire will be in the ground?

So how does this sound?:

Starting at the barn panel install a 2 pole 20 amp breaker and attach #10-3 UF wire. Run this wire 55 ft. to the shed sub panel. The sub panel will have two 15 amp breakers attaching #14 wire which with create the 2 circuits inside the shed.

This is the link to the electrical code my city uses.
http://z2codes.franklinlegal.net/fra...set=lubbockset


Thank you
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Old 11-11-2013, 10:42 AM   #15
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Shed Wiring


Quote:
Originally Posted by shedwire View Post
My budget is low, yet I have purchased things to make the job complete with some design modifications. For example I covered the shed with Tyvek house wrap to help keep dust out.

The electrical consuming devices inside will be 2 computers and monitors, CD player, radio/receiver with speakers, TV, VHS/DVD player, portable air conditioner/heater (1500 W), 4 duplex outlets, 4 basic ceiling lights (60-75 W), and 3 fluorescent wall lights (15-20 W). The total wire distance from the barn to shed is 55 ft. including around corners and in the ground. The wire will be run inside the barn most of the distance and only the last 4 ft. in the ground, because the shed is only 4 ft. away from the barn.

Will I need UF type if only 4 ft. of wire will be in the ground?

So how does this sound?:

Starting at the barn panel install a 2 pole 20 amp breaker and attach #10-3 UF wire. Run this wire 55 ft. to the shed sub panel. The sub panel will have two 15 amp breakers attaching #14 wire which with create the 2 circuits inside the shed.

This is the link to the electrical code my city uses.
http://z2codes.franklinlegal.net/fra...set=lubbockset


Thank you
if any part of the conductor is underground, it will need to be uf. that doesn't mean the entire circuit needs to be uf. you could run 'cheaper' conductor (i.e. nm) inside the barn and then have an accessible junction box where you could transition to uf for the last run.

i took a look at your local code and they have an amendment to nec table 300.5. it states that underground services or feeders need to be in raceway which means no direct burial. if you are only running a branch circuit or a multi-wire branch circuit underground, i believe it could be direct buried. if you put a sub panel in the shed, that circuit now becomes a feeder and the underground portion would need to be in conduit.

EDIT: and if you do put in a feeder with underground raceway, the conductor wouldn't have to be uf. you could use thwn or anything else rated for underground/wet locations.

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Last edited by itsnotrequired; 11-11-2013 at 10:50 AM.
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