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rsriverrat 12-26-2008 05:59 PM

shed power suggestions
 
hello again,

some of you may remember me from a few months back when i had a faulty stab-lock sub panel and the landlord had it replaced by a wannabe electrician, well thats still not resolved but i need to power a shed and would like some suggestions please.

this is a 8x12 shed that is going to be my shop persay till i buy the house and build a proper shop, at that point this 8x12 will become a garden shed to house lawn mower, garden tools, and the like.

the tools i will be using in there (not all at once) will be a benchtop drill press, miter saw, smaller delta table saw, 26gal air compressor, and a millermatic 180, a few 4' shop lights and maybe a 100w flood at the top of the door. the 2 largest power consumers that might have to run at the same time is the welder and the compressor, the welders plate says 240v 21.7a, and the compressor says 120v 15a. so total between the welder and compressor is 37 amps.

i assume i have a 200a service to my house since its all elec and built in the early 80's, at the meter base is my 240 panel which runs subs for the 100a panel in the laundry room, heater, a/c, stove. there are 2 unused breakers in that main, one is a 40a and one is a 60a. i was originally going to use the 60a and run 4g or 6g thwn but the cost (about 600 dollars) isnt worth it for a 200 dollar shed that will be used for garden tools later on. the run i will need is approx 130' and will need to be buried.

on a jobsite the other day i talked to a lineman from gulf power and he said to use al since copper is so high these days, but all lowes sells is 2-2-2-4 SE-U and would be half the price of a 6g thwn, but i am not sure i can bury that or conduit it...

if i have left anything out or you need more info just let me know. remember that this is for a 200 dollar garden shed basically.

if need be i can forgo the welder as the guys on the miller forums run these welders on 100' 8g ext cords from dryer plugs, as thats my current setup but using about 50'

Ratt

jamiedolan 12-26-2008 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsriverrat (Post 202752)
hello again,

some of you may remember me from a few months back when i had a faulty stab-lock sub panel and the landlord had it replaced by a wannabe electrician, well thats still not resolved but i need to power a shed and would like some suggestions please.

this is a 8x12 shed that is going to be my shop persay till i buy the house and build a proper shop, at that point this 8x12 will become a garden shed to house lawn mower, garden tools, and the like.

the tools i will be using in there (not all at once) will be a benchtop drill press, miter saw, smaller delta table saw, 26gal air compressor, and a millermatic 180, a few 4' shop lights and maybe a 100w flood at the top of the door. the 2 largest power consumers that might have to run at the same time is the welder and the compressor, the welders plate says 240v 21.7a, and the compressor says 120v 15a. so total between the welder and compressor is 37 amps.

i assume i have a 200a service to my house since its all elec and built in the early 80's, at the meter base is my 240 panel which runs subs for the 100a panel in the laundry room, heater, a/c, stove. there are 2 unused breakers in that main, one is a 40a and one is a 60a. i was originally going to use the 60a and run 4g or 6g thwn but the cost (about 600 dollars) isnt worth it for a 200 dollar shed that will be used for garden tools later on. the run i will need is approx 130' and will need to be buried.

on a jobsite the other day i talked to a lineman from gulf power and he said to use al since copper is so high these days, but all lowes sells is 2-2-2-4 SE-U and would be half the price of a 6g thwn, but i am not sure i can bury that or conduit it...

if i have left anything out or you need more info just let me know. remember that this is for a 200 dollar garden shed basically.

if need be i can forgo the welder as the guys on the miller forums run these welders on 100' 8g ext cords from dryer plugs, as thats my current setup but using about 50'

Ratt

You could run 12 gage direct burial romex for 20A service. There would be some voltage drop, but I think it would still be use able for most of your 120V tools. Do you really need more power there at one time than 1 20A circuit can provide? That is still a lot of trench to dig, unless you have a machine.

I would just run the extension cord as necessary for the welder / compressor if they are not getting used all the time, since this is a fairly temp setup and cost is an issue.

Jamie

rsriverrat 12-26-2008 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamiedolan (Post 202814)
You could run 12 gage direct burial romex for 20A service. There would be some voltage drop, but I think it would still be use able for most of your 120V tools. Do you really need more power there at one time than 1 20A circuit can provide? That is still a lot of trench to dig, unless you have a machine.

I would just run the extension cord as necessary for the welder / compressor if they are not getting used all the time, since this is a fairly temp setup and cost is an issue.

Jamie

yes i am considering just running a single circuit out there instead, i dont use the welder all that much at all, so really the compressor and the table saw would pull the most and they both run fine on 12g ext cord @100' individually of course.. if i ran 10g with a 20a for that distance i should be ok for running all the tools and lights i specified other then the welder as long as i dont run the table saw and compressor all at once correct?

Speedy Petey 12-26-2008 08:36 PM

A welder on an extension cord??? NOT a good idea.

Unless you want to run a 50-60A service out to this shed I would forget the idea of using the welder out there.

You can get away with a 20A multi-wire circuit as a bare minimum solution. There is NO reason to run just one 120v circuit. A 20A multi-wire circuit is two 20A circuits just by using 12/3 instead of 12/2, IF you plan on running UF cable.

2-2-2-4 SE cable is SE-R, not SE-U, and no, it cannot be buried, and no, don't bother thinking about putting it in conduit underground.

If anything, 6-6-6-4AL URD in 1" or 1-1/4" PVC is a good compromise for a 50A feeder to a small sub-panel.

Speedy Petey 12-26-2008 08:38 PM

With a multi-wire circuit as I suggested you can run both tools if they are on different circuits. This will actually help lessen the voltage drop out there.
Either way, #10 would certainly help.

jamiedolan 12-26-2008 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsriverrat (Post 202818)
yes i am considering just running a single circuit out there instead, i dont use the welder all that much at all, so really the compressor and the table saw would pull the most and they both run fine on 12g ext cord @100' individually of course.. if i ran 10g with a 20a for that distance i should be ok for running all the tools and lights i specified other then the welder as long as i dont run the table saw and compressor all at once correct?

Speedy posted an excellent idea for not alot of additional cost. 10-3 w/ground is readily available (you would have to find it in direct burial version, but I bet HD has it). Also that would allow you to run 2 circuits without having to drive in a grounding rod, per NEC 250.32A. The 10 gage would also greatly reduce voltage drop.

I didn't even give your welder / extension cord setup consideration before I made the comment about using it, I was under the impression that you had already calculated that and had something that was working, but I see now that you only have used it on a cord to 50'. I am not sure it is a great idea, I will defer to speedy or others if you have more questions about using a extension cord at this distance for that kind of load.

The 10-3 would allow you to divide up your load and you would be fine with what you want to run. Then as along as you had the compressor on one circuit an the table saw on the other you should be ok as long as you don't get too many lights running.

Jamie

rsriverrat 12-26-2008 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speedy Petey
A welder on an extension cord??? NOT a good idea.

when i was doing custom handrails a few yrs ago when we would build onsite spiral stair rails with steel we used ext cords from the temp pole to the location and we were using a much larger welder then this and tig welding. anyway i have used it off and on for more then a yr this way and its been fine, there are alot of diy'ers that only have dryer plugs available to them, and thats what/how those people do it, i am not saying its right by any means because i am not an electrician, i am just saying what others including myself do on an infrequent basis is all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speedy Petey
Unless you want to run a 50-60A service out to this shed I would forget the idea of using the welder out there.

going to go with either a single circuit or the multiwire u spoke of

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speedy Petey
You can get away with a 20A multi-wire circuit as a bare minimum solution. There is NO reason to run just one 120v circuit. A 20A multi-wire circuit is two 20A circuits just by using 12/3 instead of 12/2, IF you plan on running UF cable.

interesting, never thought of that, 2 20's would be nice to have as a just incase i need more power.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speedy Petey
2-2-2-4 SE cable is SE-R, not SE-U, and no, it cannot be buried, and no, don't bother thinking about putting it in conduit underground.

figured as much and pretty much scratched the idea b4 i got home but thought id ask anyway.

rsriverrat 12-26-2008 11:14 PM

jamie,

since this will be for a shed circuit, will i have to use a double pole gfci if there is such a thing since this will be feeding an outbuilding? or will i need to provide the gfci's on the plugs only of the building itself?

thanks for all the help so far you guys, much appreciated

Ratt

jamiedolan 12-26-2008 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsriverrat (Post 202878)
jamie,

since this will be for a shed circuit, will i have to use a double pole gfci if there is such a thing since this will be feeding an outbuilding? or will i need to provide the gfci's on the plugs only of the building itself?

thanks for all the help so far you guys, much appreciated

Ratt

I believe that the only requirement in this case is going to be on the outlets inside the shed (per nec 2008 which requires GF on just about everything). It would not be a bad idea to have the whole line protected but from what I can tell this is not a requirement as long as you have it buried 24" deep. I would double check this with your local inspector because I am not positive I am correct on my reading of the code.

Double pole GFCI breakers are available, but they are $100-$150 for most panels. They may not be available for all older panels either. I don't see any reason not to use dead front GFCI's at your panel, other than you would have to use GFCI's that are able to terminate 10awg wire. Many will only take 12 gage.

Jamie

Speedy Petey 12-27-2008 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamiedolan (Post 202880)
I believe that the only requirement in this case is going to be on the outlets inside the shed (per nec 2008 which requires GF on just about everything). It would not be a bad idea to have the whole line protected but from what I can tell this is not a requirement as long as you have it buried 24" deep. I would double check this with your local inspector because I am not positive I am correct on my reading of the code.

Double pole GFCI breakers are available, but they are $100-$150 for most panels. They may not be available for all older panels either. I don't see any reason not to use dead front GFCI's at your panel, other than you would have to use GFCI's that are able to terminate 10awg wire. Many will only take 12 gage.

Jamie

A) ALL/ONLY 120V/15&20A receptacles at an unfinished (inhabitable) outbuilding must be GFI protected. Lighting does not. 240v receptacles do not.

B) The 2008 NEC does not require GFI protection on much more than the 2005. You are thinking of AFCI protection.

C) The UF cable can be direct buried 18" deep by code. If it is GFI protected before it goes underground, and is on no more than a 20A circuit, then it can be buried 12".

D) You CANNOT use two dead face GFIs for this. This is a multi-wire circuit and must use a two pole GFI breaker if that is the intent. The only other way is to provide individual GFI protection at the shed.

Speedy Petey 12-27-2008 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsriverrat (Post 202831)
when i was doing custom handrails a few yrs ago when we would build onsite spiral stair rails with steel we used ext cords from the temp pole to the location and we were using a much larger welder then this and tig welding. anyway i have used it off and on for more then a yr this way and its been fine, there are alot of diy'ers that only have dryer plugs available to them, and thats what/how those people do it, i am not saying its right by any means because i am not an electrician, i am just saying what others including myself do on an infrequent basis is all.

My comment was more for a DIYer on a temporary basis. The cord alone would bust the budget. I don't think Jamie too into account that this was a 30A minimum circuit at over 100', and the ends are very expensive as well.

For a professional it is a different story. An expensive x-cord is just overhead. :thumbsup:

pcampbell 12-27-2008 09:00 AM

Think of all that work digging this trench and then needing more power later.

Could you explain 2-2-2-4 SE cable is SE-R, VS SE-U, - Residential vs Underground????

jamiedolan 12-27-2008 09:01 AM

A) ALL/ONLY 120V/15&20A receptacles at an unfinished (inhabitable) outbuilding must be GFI protected. Lighting does not. 240v receptacles do not.
So the protection is just required in the structure, not on the way to it, unless you don't burry it as deep, per col 4 in 300.5. Correct?

B) The 2008 NEC does not require GFI protection on much more than the 2005. You are thinking of AFCI protection.

I was just commenting that in 08 they took away just about the last of the unprotected outlets, which seems a bit overboard, forcing people to use GFCI for virtually everything. --
"210.8(A)(2) & (A)(5): Expanded GFCI protection requirements by deleting exceptions for receptacles that are not readily accessible and receptacles located in dedicated spaces to supply an appliance."

I am aware of the AFCI mess also. :-)

C) The UF cable can be direct buried 18" deep by code. If it is GFI protected before it goes underground, and is on no more than a 20A circuit, then it can be buried 12".

I am looking at table 300.5, which line applies that allows this to be burried at 18"? The way I understood that table, unless they were under concrete / a drive way they had to follow the 24" "all locations not spec" What one are you allowed to follow?

D) You CANNOT use two dead face GFIs for this. This is a multi-wire circuit and must use a two pole GFI breaker if that is the intent. The only other way is to provide individual GFI protection at the shed.

Thanks for the correction. Was up too late last night, it would not be a MWBC anymore after the dead fronts. :-)

Thanks
Jamie

JohnJ0906 12-27-2008 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pcampbell (Post 203003)
Think of all that work digging this trench and then needing more power later.

Installing conduit is always a good idea when the trench is open, because you can upgrade later without retrenching.

Quote:

Could you explain 2-2-2-4 SE cable is SE-R, VS SE-U, - Residential vs Underground????
2-2-2-4 SE is Service Entrance cable, with (3)#2 conductors, and (1) #4 conductor.
R and U do not stand for residential and underground. (R) usually is a 4 conductor cable that is round, and (U) is usually a 3 conductor cable that is oval. (I don't remember what the "U" stands for)

Underground service cable is USE, not SEU.

frenchelectrican 12-27-2008 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speedy Petey (Post 202971)
A) ALL/ONLY 120V/15&20A receptacles at an unfinished (inhabitable) outbuilding must be GFI protected. Lighting does not. 240v receptacles do not.

B) The 2008 NEC does not require GFI protection on much more than the 2005. You are thinking of AFCI protection.

C) The UF cable can be direct buried 18" deep by code. If it is GFI protected before it goes underground, and is on no more than a 20A circuit, then it can be buried 12".

D) You CANNOT use two dead face GFIs for this. This is a multi-wire circuit and must use a two pole GFI breaker if that is the intent. The only other way is to provide individual GFI protection at the shed.

Pete .,

Let you know with State of Wisconsin did make litte running change with 2008 Code { I am sure you heard we finally adpoted the 2008 code with few changes }

I will highlight one circital item here I know it don't apply to your state but it do to ours now once 2008 code take in effect { unless override by local codes } all the 120 volts light circuits have to be GFCI'ed ( for resdentail unfinshed buildings ., Commercal .,, nope just receptales )

The instering twist do come up is the farm set up will deal two sets of codes { the living quarters will use resdentail codes while non resdental building will use commercal codes }

AFCI ?? pushed back to 2011 but still optional to use it.

Jrcren { John } allready know the change also.

( unforetally I dont have all the details on this laptop due I am in Paris France right now so when I get back to states I will get it asap )

Merci,Marc


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