Seeking Advice For Wiring In Hot-tub. - Electrical - Page 3 - DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum


Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Electrical

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-23-2009, 11:42 PM   #31
UAW SKILLED TRADES
 
Stubbie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kansas
Posts: 5,247
Rewards Points: 2,464
Default

Seeking advice for wiring in hot-tub.


Quote:
Well, that has me intrigued....please explain (keeping in mind I'm pretty much a beginner at this sort of stuff)--would the 4 wires plus ground give me more options for the hot tub (considering any outside outlet I'd want to install would need to be around the corner to be 10' from the outer wall of the hot-tub's enclosure, so would require a totally different circuit)??
Without knowing the spa your purchasing you would certainly be foolish to not run a feeder to a spa panel without a neutral. Feeders require insulated ground wire....no exceptions. If you want to supply branch circuits at 120 volts and a spa requiring 120 and 240 volt loads then you will need something besides your typical gfci spa disconnect if that disconnect panel is where you want to supply optional 120 volt loads. You will need a panel of some sort that will allow multiple breakers fed by a feeder from the main panel. Some high end tubs require two gfci breakers, one for the control panel and one for the heater. These tubs typically require 60 amp branch circuits. So any feeder to a 'unknown' tubs distribuiton/disconnect panel panel should be in conduit and copper #6 thwn with a neutral and appropriately sized insulated ground as a minimum to accomodate the majority of hot tubs if that is an unknown.


Quote:
Last summer I pulled two 6-3 w/g circuits to power a high-capacity electric HWOD unit (6-2 w/g would have been adequate but was not available in this backwoods part of Kansas), the 6 gauge was repesented to be safe for 60 amps and 8 gauge was reported to be safe for 50 amps......plans for this summer include wiring in one interior 50 amp circuit for an electric stove, one interior 50 amp circuit for future expansion in a different zone of the kitchen (possibly ovens), and two 50 amp circuits for additional lower capacity HWOD units to provide two separate zones of underfloor hydronic radiant heat.
6 gauage copper cable ..ie...nmb or ser...is good for 55 amps and can be breakered for 60 amps,... they cannot be used as feeders to spa panels.

8 guage copper cable as above is good for 40 amps.

Thwn in conduit terminated on 75C rated connections of equipment is 65 amps for #6 and 50 amps for #8. The #6 can be breakered at 70 amps and the #8 at 50 amps. The reason for the 70 amp breaker on #6 is you are allowed the next higher breaker since there isn't a 65 amp breaker. Same goes for the #6 cable.


By my count you have planned 7 50 amp or greater branch circuits and feeders for cooking and heating and the spa not to mention the load of the rest of your house. I would suggest a demand load calculation to see if you can support your home on a 200 amp service.

Quote:
As you can see, I'm planning on spending quite a bit of time pulling wire and I think a 125' coil of 8-2 w/g ought to suffice for those interior circuits, it's just the outdoor circuit I am uncomfortable with.
8/2 with ground cable is 40 amps not 50 no matter how you look at it. The stove and ovens you are likely fine with #8 cable but not so for the HOWD's if they are required to have 50 amp circuits.

Advertisement

__________________
" One nice thing about the NEC articles ... you have lots of choices"

Stubbie
Stubbie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2009, 12:08 AM   #32
DIY Junkie!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: split between Houston, TX and SW KS.
Posts: 223
Rewards Points: 150
Default

Seeking advice for wiring in hot-tub.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stubbie View Post
By my count you have planned 7 50 amp or greater branch circuits and feeders for cooking and heating and the spa not to mention the load of the rest of your house. I would suggest a demand load calculation to see if you can support your home on a 200 amp service.
If all goes well this house will be used for a Bed and Breakfast, we can "schedule" some of the high usage tasks for times when there is low electrical demand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stubbie View Post
8/2 with ground cable is 40 amps not 50 no matter how you look at it. The stove and ovens you are likely fine with #8 cable but not so for the HOWD's if they are required to have 50 amp circuits.
Here is the info from the manufacturer for the HWOD units, total amperage draw is at 80 amps (?).........

Breakers & Wire: 2 x 50 / 2 x 8 AWG (2-1 type, 2 hots + ground)

Max kW @ 208V / 240V: 14.4 kW / 19.2 kW

Volts: 208V / 240V

Max AMP @ 208V / 240V: 70 / 80

As I understand it, the HWOD units would draw close to the max as they turn on, then once the chamber heats up the amperage draw would reduce, and running them in a closed loop system with a floor thermostat, the might not kick on very often. That's the ideal..........

At any rate, we could schedule such tasks as laundry and cleaning for the times of day when the house would be vacant.

Yeah, it would be a false economy to go with anything less than 6 gauge for the spa, I want to do it right the first time.

Could this be a job for a separate sub-panel (I doubt it, unless one could be found that could withstand getting rained and snowed on, but as you can see there's not much I know about electrical stuff, that's why I'm asking )?

Dugly
YerDugliness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2009, 01:01 AM   #33
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Apple Valley, MN, USA
Posts: 1,002
Rewards Points: 506
Send a message via AIM to theatretch85
Default

Seeking advice for wiring in hot-tub.


Quote:
Originally Posted by YerDugliness View Post
Could this be a job for a separate sub-panel (I doubt it, unless one could be found that could withstand getting rained and snowed on, but as you can see there's not much I know about electrical stuff, that's why I'm asking )?

Dugly
Um, they do make outdoor rated sub panel enclosures. Usually not that much more expensive than the indoor panels; the guts of the two panels are the same, its just the cover that's different. These tow types of panels should be right next to each other at your local home center.
theatretch85 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2009, 01:09 AM   #34
UAW SKILLED TRADES
 
Stubbie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kansas
Posts: 5,247
Rewards Points: 2,464
Default

Seeking advice for wiring in hot-tub.


Quote:
Here is the info from the manufacturer for the HWOD units, total amperage draw is at 80 amps (?).........

Breakers & Wire: 2 x 50 / 2 x 8 AWG (2-1 type, 2 hots + ground)

Max kW @ 208V / 240V: 14.4 kW / 19.2 kW

Volts: 208V / 240V

Max AMP @ 208V / 240V: 70 / 80
You are planning two of these and already have one that is 2x60??
__________________
" One nice thing about the NEC articles ... you have lots of choices"

Stubbie
Stubbie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2009, 02:49 AM   #35
DIY Junkie!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: split between Houston, TX and SW KS.
Posts: 223
Rewards Points: 150
Default

Seeking advice for wiring in hot-tub.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stubbie View Post
You are planning two of these and already have one that is 2x60??
Yeah, it might well be over-kill....I know it sounds like a lot, but each will be responsible for heating only whatever volume of water will be needed to fill enough PEX to provide radiant heat about 450 square feet. The reason I think (??) I need two is b/c the house's floor space is about 900 square feet, half of which is carpeted with thick padding and the other half of which is hard flooring, probably 70% of which will be wood laminate flooring and the other 30% ceramic tile.

Perhaps I could get by with only one zone and one HWOD unit, I just don't know how that would affect the relative temperatures of the two distinct flooring types with a single hot water supply. Whether two zones or one, I'd rather operate them as a closed loop system rather than heat a tank of water to recirculate....that would take up valuable space in an othewise crowded basement right now.

Later, maybe......???? I would like to experiment with solar power, but not at first, I just want the old house to become more user-friendly in the winter for now....I'm presently heating it with small 1500 watt electric heaters in each room, I can't help but think that the radiant hydronic system would be much more comfortable and less expensive at the same time.

The house has 8" thick poured concrete walls, in the summer it is so efficient that I never need the air conditioners.....I use an exhaust fan in the western-most window to draw cool air through the house at night, then when I get up in the morning I close the windows and shades and the house stays cool all day even in the worst heat as long as I don't go in and out 100 times a day.

Dugly

Last edited by YerDugliness; 03-24-2009 at 02:51 AM.
YerDugliness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2009, 11:25 AM   #36
UAW SKILLED TRADES
 
Stubbie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kansas
Posts: 5,247
Rewards Points: 2,464
Default

Seeking advice for wiring in hot-tub.


Your going to be taxing or exceeding your 200 amp service if these 3 HOWD's are heating at the same time, I'm not sure how you prevent that. And a hot tub to boot, and maybe a dryer, cooking and so on. Might want to take a look at gas but I get the feeling you probably are not on natural gas in your area. Likely propane but I'm not seeing this design working on a 200 amp service.
__________________
" One nice thing about the NEC articles ... you have lots of choices"

Stubbie

Last edited by Stubbie; 03-24-2009 at 11:29 AM.
Stubbie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2009, 12:12 PM   #37
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Iowa
Posts: 1,543
Rewards Points: 1,000
Default

Seeking advice for wiring in hot-tub.


You are getting over the 200 amp service limit. Not a hazard, but a pain when all the lights go out.
rgsgww is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2009, 12:49 PM   #38
DIY Junkie!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: split between Houston, TX and SW KS.
Posts: 223
Rewards Points: 150
Default

Seeking advice for wiring in hot-tub.


Thanks so much for all the posts, guys. I can see that this project needs to be rethought. You are correct, it would be difficult to control when those two smaller HWOD units would ramp up, and add to that the need for hot water as cleaning activities occur throughout the day makes the waters even muddier (no pun intended, I assure you).

There is natural gas available to the house, but at this time I'm disconnected.....and, I'm not interested in reconnecting if I can at all go all-electric. The local natural gas folks want about $40/month for their service, naturally that includes a modest volume of natural gas. So, what's the problem? The natural gas company charges that $40/month even if you don't use a single cubic foot of their precious natural gas and at this time I am only in the house between 90 and 120 days a year. The gas company charges for disconnects and reconnects, and those fees are close to $80 each. The local electrical cooperative, however, has great rates (around $.07/kwh up to 750 kwh, then down to about $.05/kwh after that) and offers free disconnects and reconnects to members. I just leave the electricity on when I leave (the monthly meter charge and taxes amount to under $9/month) and disconnect the entire system at the pole, where there is quite the nice panel with 200 amp breaker, and then use a padlock to make sure nobody messes with it while I'm gone. I really like the "attitude" of the electrical cooperative , really don't like the "attitude" of the natural gas company .

So, perhaps I should reconsider the heat source for the hydronic radiant system.....perhaps a single HWOD unit heating a water storage container, from which dual systems could be constructed using different thermostats and pumps for each system. That would reduce the load demand and might enable me to get all the systems in under 200 amps. I'd really like to keep the hot-tub in the plans.

For now, I will plan on running a separate 6 gauge/4 wire (with separate insulated ground) circuit to the outdoor location for the hot-tub, may rethink where I run the other 50 amp circuit for the hydronic radiant heating system as well as the design for the entire system.....I'm just trying to get in all the circuits that might be needed well before the appliances are purchased so that I can get the wall coverings back on those back porch walls and get the wiring covered.

Thanks SO much for all the help, guys. The last time I went off "half-cocked", it cost me big, I'm highly motivated to avoid that situation in the future!

Dugly

Last edited by YerDugliness; 03-24-2009 at 12:55 PM.
YerDugliness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2009, 02:41 PM   #39
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: South of Boston, MA
Posts: 17,248
Rewards Points: 2,000
Default

Seeking advice for wiring in hot-tub.


My hot tub is actually powered from a little 90a Spa Pak sub panel
It came with the 50a GFCI & (2) 20a breakers
It was fairly inexpensive
I'm going to use the 20a breakers for lighting in the storage area under my sunroom & outdoor outlets under the deck. The 2nd breaker will be used for a 2nd outside circuit & garden lighting
Scuba_Dave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2009, 02:55 PM   #40
Licensed electrician
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Maryland
Posts: 8,053
Rewards Points: 2,904
Default

Seeking advice for wiring in hot-tub.


Have you considered a hot water boiler to feed your multizone hydronic heat? Each zone has their own T-stat and can call for heat when needed.
Jim Port is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2009, 03:20 PM   #41
DIY Junkie!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: split between Houston, TX and SW KS.
Posts: 223
Rewards Points: 150
Default

Seeking advice for wiring in hot-tub.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
Have you considered a hot water boiler to feed your multizone hydronic heat? Each zone has their own T-stat and can call for heat when needed.
Hadn't yet, but I will now, Jim! I'd be interested in whatever sources you can provide so that I can check it out, I just have to keep the max amperage draw at 80 amps or less to be on the safe side.

Thanks for that tip, I'm very interested!

Dugly
YerDugliness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2009, 11:44 PM   #42
DIY Junkie!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: split between Houston, TX and SW KS.
Posts: 223
Rewards Points: 150
Default

Seeking advice for wiring in hot-tub.


OK, I think I'm starting to understand why the electrician was so adamant that we didn't need a grounding rod/circuit when we replaced the service panel at the time we upgraded my electrical service a year ago. Found in a different thread on this forum board:


Quote:
Originally Posted by jamiedolan View Post

Quoting Mike Holt;

"What is the Purpose of the Ground Rod?
The ground rods serve no purpose in clearing line to line or line to case faults. An electrical system will operate “ungrounded” and some industrial systems are designed to operate ungrounded. The purpose of the Ground Rod, or more accurately Grounding Electrode System is given in Section 250.4(A) (1) and (2):
(1) Electrical System Grounding. Electrical systems that are grounded shall be connected to earth in a manner that will limit the voltage imposed by lightning, line surges, or unintentional contact with higher-voltage lines and that will stabilize the voltage to earth during normal operation."

Jamie
Surfing through this section has helped me understand (I think) why the electrician said we needed no grounding rod/circuit when we replaced the overhead 100 amp service with underground 200 amp service at a project home I own......this is the first time I've seen anything that specifically stated that the grounding reqirements apply only to grounded systems and that there are some systems designed not to need grounding rods.....this is as it was represented by the electrician who did the upgrade at my project home and I've been suspicious about it every since. Looks like my suspicion was unfounded....at last I understand it!

Thanks !

Dugly

Last edited by YerDugliness; 03-25-2009 at 11:49 PM. Reason: add quote from other thread
YerDugliness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2009, 11:51 PM   #43
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: South of Boston, MA
Posts: 17,248
Rewards Points: 2,000
Default

Seeking advice for wiring in hot-tub.


I would not be so confident that your system does not need a grounding rod
Scuba_Dave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2009, 12:15 AM   #44
DIY Junkie!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: split between Houston, TX and SW KS.
Posts: 223
Rewards Points: 150
Default

Seeking advice for wiring in hot-tub.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave View Post
I would not be so confident that your system does not need a grounding rod
That's been my issue all along, since this hot-tub is going to be in a water-rich environment, I thought it would need a grounding rod or two....if all I needed to do was run a grounding wire from somewhere like a mounting bolt for the hot tub's motor to a ground rod at the side of the deck, that would be an easy matter, but somebody said it has to be run from the service panel to the spa's shutoff box and then connected from there to the grounding rod....that makes it a WHOLE lot more trouble, necessitating either a separate circuit or at least running a separate insulated grounding wire from the service panel when I run the electrical supply wiring to the shutoff box.

So, I'm confused again....that's what I get for doing my own thinking !

Would photos help? I will be at the house in about 2 weeks and can take photos to post here. It's an easy matter to get photos of the meter box and it's connections for the supply lines for the garage and the house, and the inside of the supply box in the house.

Anything to end this confusion.....I've been searching and every time I feel like I've understood it, this happens---I end up feeling like a !!

One very confused Dugly
YerDugliness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2009, 12:27 AM   #45
DIY'er
 
jamiedolan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Neenah, Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 2,032
Rewards Points: 1,000
Blog Entries: 2
Default

Seeking advice for wiring in hot-tub.


Quote:
Originally Posted by YerDugliness View Post
That's been my issue all along, since this hot-tub is going to be in a water-rich environment, I thought it would need a grounding rod or two....if all I needed to do was run a grounding wire from somewhere like a mounting bolt for the hot tub's motor to a ground rod at the side of the deck, that would be an easy matter, but somebody said it has to be run from the service panel to the spa's shutoff box and then connected from there to the grounding rod....that makes it a WHOLE lot more trouble, necessitating either a separate circuit or at least running a separate insulated grounding wire from the service panel when I run the electrical supply wiring to the shutoff box.

So, I'm confused again....that's what I get for doing my own thinking !

Would photos help? I will be at the house in about 2 weeks and can take photos to post here. It's an easy matter to get photos of the meter box and it's connections for the supply lines for the garage and the house, and the inside of the supply box in the house.

Anything to end this confusion.....I've been searching and every time I feel like I've understood it, this happens---I end up feeling like a !!

One very confused Dugly
HI;
1. You should have rods for the house that are connected to the main service equipment, it is good practice to have them, and they are inexpensive.

2. You must run a 4 wire feed to a hot tub. It must have an insulated ground wire that runs back to the panel, not to ground rods, not to anywhere else. This means you run single strands of wire in conduit, NOT ROMEX.

Jamie

Advertisement

__________________
Jamie Dolan - Neenah, WI
Jamie Dolan Paw Dogs
Need Help Uploading Photos? Click here.
jamiedolan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
New Home Wiring - Seeking Expert Advice Dirtrnr Electrical 3 02-10-2009 11:33 AM
Seeking advice regarding siding/insulation/tyvek, etc. zamoti Building & Construction 7 02-09-2009 08:05 PM
Electrical Advice Caution!!! Mike Swearingen Electrical 12 03-05-2008 12:51 PM
Seeking Advice On Building Contract RichardE General DIY Discussions 5 04-25-2007 02:19 AM
another newbie seeking advice nitrozorro Building & Construction 2 08-14-2006 10:03 PM




Top of Page | View New Posts