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Old 03-23-2009, 08:32 PM   #16
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Seeking advice for wiring in hot-tub.


I've always understood the insulated ground to apply to hot tubs
After installing 2 different hot tubs & having 2 different Inspectors check for the wiring in 2 different Towns

As I understand it it is the final run to the tub that needs the insulated ground. IE the run to the shut-off could be reg wire
Not sure if it was this board or another where REg wire was run to the tub & they were instructed to cut just replace it from the shut-off to the tub
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Old 03-23-2009, 08:32 PM   #17
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Seeking advice for wiring in hot-tub.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DangerMouse View Post
"get by"? what does the manufacturer of the tub say to use?

DM

oh, and LTNS!
Hey, DM, good to hear from ya' again!

As for the tub, I don't have one yet, probably 1 or 2 years down the line, so I don't have a recommendation from a manufacturer. I just wanted to get the wiring in before I put the walls back on the back porch and was hoping against hope that it might be an easy issue, but I see that Murphy's Law is always in full effect when dealing with electrical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgsgww View Post
First of all 8 cannot supply 50 amps. You need 6 for 50 amps.

You will need gfci protection.

I would run a 4 wire setup (plus ground)
Well, that has me intrigued....please explain (keeping in mind I'm pretty much a beginner at this sort of stuff)--would the 4 wires plus ground give me more options for the hot tub (considering any outside outlet I'd want to install would need to be around the corner to be 10' from the outer wall of the hot-tub's enclosure, so would require a totally different circuit)?? Last summer I pulled two 6-3 w/g circuits to power a high-capacity electric HWOD unit (6-2 w/g would have been adequate but was not available in this backwoods part of Kansas), the 6 gauge was repesented to be safe for 60 amps and 8 gauge was reported to be safe for 50 amps......plans for this summer include wiring in one interior 50 amp circuit for an electric stove, one interior 50 amp circuit for future expansion in a different zone of the kitchen (possibly ovens), and two 50 amp circuits for additional lower capacity HWOD units to provide two separate zones of underfloor hydronic radiant heat. As you can see, I'm planning on spending quite a bit of time pulling wire and I think a 125' coil of 8-2 w/g ought to suffice for those interior circuits, it's just the outdoor circuit I am uncomfortable with.


Quote:
Originally Posted by InPhase277 View Post
Your best bet would probably be to run the wiring in 3/4" conduit to a temporary box, until you know what you need when you get the tub. A black, red, and white #6 THHN/THWN with a green #10 THHN/THWN ground would set you up for a maximum of 60 A at 120/240 V. Don't terminate the wiring in the panel until you know what kind of breaker you need. Just tape the ends up and push them out of the way. Don't use romex, and don't listen to the Home Depot idiot.
Well, that helps in one respect....at least I don't have to buy a whole 125' coil of 6 gauge romex. For the conduit, would that grey plastic "Karlon" ("Carlon" -- don't know about the spelling) work for installing the hot-tub's temporary outdoor box or does it need to be metal?

Keep the advice and comments coming, guys....I will be putting my you-know-what in the water and on the line with this project, sure don't want anything to take a bite at it later .

Dugly
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Old 03-23-2009, 08:37 PM   #18
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Seeking advice for wiring in hot-tub.


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Originally Posted by NolaTigaBait View Post
this is what i was asking....its obviously a manufacturers thing(having an insulated eg)....ive never seen a person lose sleep around here for running romex in conduit and even underground(even though it is a violation)
Romex can & is run in PVC, in many cases for protection
So long as the fill ratio works you can do it
And as long as it is not damp wet as you stated
Not my preference, its hard enough to pull individual wires
My only run is a sleeve of about 12" to get outside
I'd never run it underground, I'm sure some people do

You need a 4 wire setup for a Tub
Just what is required
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Old 03-23-2009, 08:39 PM   #19
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Seeking advice for wiring in hot-tub.


Quote:
would the 4 wires plus ground give me more options for the hot tub
its two hots a neutral and a ground, you need a neutral (4 wires)
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Old 03-23-2009, 09:01 PM   #20
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Seeking advice for wiring in hot-tub.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave View Post
You need a 4 wire setup for a Tub
Just what is required
Quote:
Originally Posted by NolaTigaBait View Post
its two hots a neutral and a ground, you need a neutral (4 wires)
Please pardon my confusion, but.........

I think I'm starting to understand here....the ground wire has to be insulated, hence the 4 wire requirement--two hots, one common neutral, and an insulated ground makes 4 wires, and the non-insulated ground is just along for the ride b/c there is probably no romex made without it?

Geez, guys, I hate to throw this in, but the electrician who installed the system said a specific grounding circuit with copper grounding rods was not required....the local electrical cooperative supplied the wire (150' of insulated aluminum 0000 gauge--three very hefty, large, multiple wire insulated conductors in an underground approved sheath), so what runs from the meter box on the pole at the alley to the house is just three wires, two "hots" and one "neutral" (all insulated), no ground to the service panel and no separate ground circuit in the service panel (but I saved the hardware and can add it!!).

I could install a pair of copper grounding rods if this is a requirement for safety, it just wasn't a requirement for the service upgrade (there is a very healthy sized non-insulated copper wire leading downwards on the pole from the meter box into the ground, I have no idea how deeply the pole is buried as I was out of state when it was installed, but the electrician said that was adequate for grounding purposes).

Again, any advice is sincerely appreciated here, to be honest electricity is one of the few things that scares me and IMHO it's difficult to be too safe around the stuff!!

Dugly

Last edited by YerDugliness; 03-23-2009 at 09:04 PM.
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Old 03-23-2009, 09:08 PM   #21
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Seeking advice for wiring in hot-tub.


if you say 6/3 romex, thats 2 hots a neutral, and a bare ground....as far as teh ground rods, im not sure what you are asking,...but the intention for ground rods at the service is in the event of a lightning strike or utility brownout they will protect you by keeping the voltage equalized....the ground is bonded at the service with the neutral, this what will cause the breaker to trip, not ground rods, the fault current goes back to the utility
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Old 03-23-2009, 09:10 PM   #22
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Seeking advice for wiring in hot-tub.


It's my understanding that you specifically can't use any wire that includes an uninsulated ground. I'm not sure how an Inspector would rule if the wire was used, but the uninsulated ground wire was not used

I'm not sure what NEC code you are under
I had my feed rewired - buried
3 runs from the pole - 2 hots & a neutral
Then 2 ground rods had to be installed per code at the house/main service panel
Then the panel had to be bonded to the incoming water line

Bonding at your hot tub depends upon what it will be sitting on

Last edited by Scuba_Dave; 03-23-2009 at 09:15 PM.
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Old 03-23-2009, 09:14 PM   #23
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Seeking advice for wiring in hot-tub.


There is no ground from the transformer at the pole.

Do you have metal water service? That has to be connected to the rest of the grounding system.
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Old 03-23-2009, 09:16 PM   #24
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Seeking advice for wiring in hot-tub.


brownout=drop in voltage...i meant to say , when utility lines are crossed causeing a surge, dont know why i said brownout, long day
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Old 03-23-2009, 09:19 PM   #25
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Seeking advice for wiring in hot-tub.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rgsgww View Post
There is no ground from the transformer at the pole.

Do you have metal water service? That has to be connected to the rest of the grounding system.
right, you need to supplement the water with a ground rod...local code may require two..the poles are grounded at each pole
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Old 03-23-2009, 09:24 PM   #26
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Seeking advice for wiring in hot-tub.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NolaTigaBait View Post
if you say 6/3 romex, thats 2 hots a neutral, and a bare ground....as far as teh ground rods, im not sure what you are asking,...but the intention for ground rods at the service is in the event of a lightning strike or utility brownout they will protect you by keeping the voltage equalized....
OK, so the only way to get the two insulated hots, the insulated neutral, and the insulated ground would be to go with 6-4 w/g romex, b/c the bare ground is useless, right? Or am I (as seems to be perpetually the case with electricity ) still confused???

As for the grounding rods, there was a piece of rebar under the meter box for a ground rod before the service upgrade (the meter box was on the outside of the back porch for the overhead 100 amp service, it's on the pole at the alley for the underground 200 amp service)--does that mean the any ground is always at the meter box? If so, that's why the electrician said grounding rods and a separate ground circuit was not needed at the house, it's that bare copper wire on the pole at the alley and with my wiring from the meter box to the house being primarily underground, there's little chance for a lightning strike between the meter box and the house--is that right ?

It was my understanding that if ground rods were needed, there needed to be two separate copper grounding rods at least 10' apart. Again, if it is the safest way, I could do this with conduit and 4 separate insulated conductors.

You should have seen us trying to get that huge underground cable to make that 90* turn where it entered the house...it took a huge "elbow" fitting and a whole lot of dishwashing soap and elbow grease!!

Dugly
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Old 03-23-2009, 09:28 PM   #27
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Seeking advice for wiring in hot-tub.


i'm not aware of any non mettallic wire that has an insulated ground, but i could be wrong....as far the ground, if there is 1/2 rebar that runs for 20 feet in your slab, then yes a ground rods are not needed, problem is unless this is new construction, how can he verify that?...by the way its called a ufer ground
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Old 03-23-2009, 09:31 PM   #28
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Seeking advice for wiring in hot-tub.


You'll need to verify with the wiring Inspector
In my case normal wire was run to the shut off
Then 2 hots, white neutral, green insulated ground were run from there (shut off in this case is the 50a GFCI breaker) to the tub
Codes have changed 2x since my tub was installed in '04
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Old 03-23-2009, 09:33 PM   #29
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Seeking advice for wiring in hot-tub.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rgsgww View Post
There is no ground from the transformer at the pole.
Do you have metal water service? That has to be connected to the rest of the grounding system.
Well, right now I do, but as the house is almost 100 years old the galvanized pipes are almost occluded with corrosion, so soon it will be time to replace the water service lines as well........the only city employee recommended PEX, I like copper myself, but soon as the copper enters the house and is connected to a manifold, it will be PEX from then on, so not a lot of chance for any grounding there.....the water enters the house on the south wall of the basement, the electricity enters the house on the north side of the back porch.

But, hey, as long as I'm going to do this I want to do it right.....and, since I will already be running two 8-2 w/g circuits (for the two low-demand HWOD units to be used for the underfloor radiant heating system) to the projected entry point for the new water supply line as part of this upgrade, I could easily run a copper ground wire to that location with the other new wires I need to pull--if that were to be a single, separate insulated wire, what gauge would it need to be?

As in all things electric, this project seems destined to "bloom" into much more of a job than I had imagined, thank goodness I asked for advice before I started!

Thanks, guys.....keep it coming, I want to learn everything I can before I'm stranded up there 90 miles from the nearest Home Depot (not necessarily for their advice--you'd be surprised how much more that wiring costs at the local hardware store in the county seat 7 miles away ).

Dugly
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Old 03-23-2009, 09:38 PM   #30
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Seeking advice for wiring in hot-tub.


Quote:
Originally Posted by YerDugliness View Post
Well, right now I do, but as the house is almost 100 years old the galvanized pipes are almost occluded with corrosion, so soon it will be time to replace the water service lines as well........the only city employee recommended PEX, I like copper myself, but soon as the copper enters the house and is connected to a manifold, it will be PEX from then on, so not a lot of chance for any grounding there.....the water enters the house on the south wall of the basement, the electricity enters the house on the north side of the back porch.

But, hey, as long as I'm going to do this I want to do it right.....and, since I will already be running two 8-2 w/g circuits (for the two low-demand HWOD units to be used for the underfloor radiant heating system) to the projected entry point for the new water supply line as part of this upgrade, I could easily run a copper ground wire to that location with the other new wires I need to pull--if that were to be a single, separate insulated wire, what gauge would it need to be?

As in all things electric, this project seems destined to "bloom" into much more of a job than I had imagined, thank goodness I asked for advice before I started!

Thanks, guys.....keep it coming, I want to learn everything I can before I'm stranded up there 90 miles from the nearest Home Depot (not necessarily for their advice--you'd be surprised how much more that wiring costs at the local hardware store in the county seat 7 miles away ).

Dugly
if you use the undergroung water, i t needs to run at least 10 feet and must be supplemented by a ground rod...and don't just run an insulated ground from the water pipe, you run it from the panel with the conductors in the conduit to the hot tub disconnect, the insulated ground needs to be terminated on the groung bar in the panel
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