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Old 12-20-2011, 03:59 PM   #16
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Schedule 40 PVC in Chicago?


Say, I've got a question: Why are we talking about plumbing, anyway?

If the building code snippet posted a while ago doesn't have any listed exceptions, than that's the OP's answer. Or part of it, anyway. Apparently, PVC and other nonmetallic conduit types cannot be used for aboveground wiring in Chicago. Doesn't say anything about underground, though.

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Old 12-20-2011, 04:03 PM   #17
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Schedule 40 PVC in Chicago?


ive worked all the trades electrical/hvac/plumbing politics is politics in all the trades
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Old 12-20-2011, 04:04 PM   #18
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Schedule 40 PVC in Chicago?


I hear ya, just trying to see if it's possible to put this thread back on the rails
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Old 12-20-2011, 04:15 PM   #19
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Schedule 40 PVC in Chicago?


Quote:
Originally Posted by McSteve View Post
Say, I've got a question: Why are we talking about plumbing, anyway?

If the building code snippet posted a while ago doesn't have any listed exceptions, than that's the OP's answer. Or part of it, anyway. Apparently, PVC and other nonmetallic conduit types cannot be used for aboveground wiring in Chicago. Doesn't say anything about underground, though.
Currently looking that up actually, looking for below ground requirements for wiring residential in Chicago.

I know in WA it's very, very common.
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Old 12-20-2011, 04:28 PM   #20
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Schedule 40 PVC in Chicago?


For some reason I can't edit my last post?

Anyways

ELECTRICAL CODE REGULATION



St. Clair County has adopted the 2005 National Electrical Code in its entirety for the unincorporated areas of the county and all communities that have contracted with the county to do their inspections, with the following 10 exceptions:

A. Conductors – Minimum Ampacity and Size. All power wire shall be 12 AWG and larger. (Article 210-19 NEC 2005)

B. Dwelling Unit Receptacles Outlet. Four (4) receptacles per circuit in kitchen. Dining room receptacles shall be on a separate circuit. All major appliances shall be on a dedicated circuit [dishwasher, disposal, microwave, refrigerator, etc.]. Heating and/or cooling unit blowers shall be on a dedicated circuit. (Article 210-52 NEC 2005) Note: All single outlets shall be installed so cords hang down properly.

C. Feeder or Service Neutral Load. Entrance conductors and neutral must be of the same size and rating. (Article 220-61 NEC 2005)

D. Maximum Number Of Disconnects. All dwelling units’ service panels shall have a single main disconnect. On new construction, all service panels shall have three (3) spaces for future circuit. No one-half () size circuit breakers permitted on new construction. (Article 230-71 NEC 2005) Note: Also, workspace shall be maintained and top of main breaker no more than 6’6”.

E. Disconnecting Means and Branch-Circuit Protective Equipment. The minimum size service for manufactured homes is 100 Amp. (Article 550-11 NEC 2005)

F. Ground Electrode Conductor. Ground wire shall be in PVC conduit from meter socket to ground rod. (Article 250-64B NEC 2005)

G. Conductors Material. Aluminum wire shall not be permitted for dwelling units or manufactured homes. (Article 310-2B NEC 2005)

H. Non Metallic Sheathed “NM” (Romex). Is permitted only in residential or dwelling not commercial buildings. (Article 210 & 215 NEC 2005)

I. Manufactured Homes. All manufactured homes shall be connected from their service disconnect to their panel in approved raceway. (Article 550-10 NEC 2005)

J. Smoke Detectors. All dwelling shall have smoke detectors and carbon monoxide detectors, they shall be hard wired (110V) with battery backup and interconnected. Smoke detectors shall be located in every bedroom and halls outside of bedroom with in 15’ of the bedroom door and each level of the home. Carbon monoxide detectors shall be within 15’ of every bedroom door. Smoke detectors and carbon monoxide detectors in security systems will not be acceptable.

However it is a bit outdated.

http://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&ta...w=1688&bih=810

Scroll down to the bottom link, and download the document.

SERVICE

1. Minimum Dwelling service is 100 amp.
#4 copper is the minimum entrance conductor for 100 amp residence.
2/0 copper is the minimum entrance conductor for 200 amp residence.
2. Aluminum wire is not permitted in dwelling units.
3. Entrance conductors and neutrals must be the same size and rating.
4. Neutrals shall be identified with white tape or white insulation and unbroken from the weather head thru the meter to the panel.
5. All service entrance conductors shall be installed in conduit from the meter to the panel. When using PVC conduit it shall have a ground wire in it. There shall be no splices in these conductors.
6. The ground wire from the meter to the ground rod shall be in PVC conduit.
7. All PVC conduit shall have the proper size ground wire in it.
8. All service panels must have a single main disconnect. On new construction, panels will have at least three spaces for future circuits.
9. Panel boxes shall be mounted with a maximum height of 6 feet 6 inches to the center of the main breaker. A maximum of 42 circuits are allowed in the main panel.
10. Panel boxes are not permitted to be mounted in closets or bathrooms.
11. Panel boxes require work clearance of 30 inches wide, 3 feet deep and floor to ceiling height unobstructed area. There shall be nothing in this area.
12. Meters shall be 5 feet 6 inches to the center of the meter above final grade.
13. Weather heads shall be a minimum height of 13 feet above ground.
14. Inspectors must be able to inspect under manufactured homes before shirting is installed.
15. Conduit ditches shall remain open until the inspection.

Last edited by BigGuy01; 12-20-2011 at 04:32 PM.
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Old 12-20-2011, 04:43 PM   #21
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Schedule 40 PVC in Chicago?


What has St. Clair county have to do with Chicago? And I suspect that the unions have the final say so in Chicago, no matter what the AHJ or building codes say. Years ago while doing carpentry on a Chicago mall project the scenario was, when mixing concrete for the project was 1. Union electrician plugged in and turned on the cement mixer. 2. Union carpenter added the concrete to the mixer while 3. Union plumber turned on the hose to add the water. And the reverse when each batch was finished. And there is absulutely NO exaggeration in this post.
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Old 12-20-2011, 04:45 PM   #22
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Schedule 40 PVC in Chicago?


Moving right along; Chicago has it's own unique electrical code, applicable within Chicago city limits and some of the outlying towns.

You can read it here: http://www.cityofchicago.org/city/en...odeonline.html

I can't make heads or tails of most of it at the moment.
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Old 12-20-2011, 04:49 PM   #23
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Schedule 40 PVC in Chicago?


From the conversations over the years with electricians from Chicago, all wiring is in metal.
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Old 12-20-2011, 04:53 PM   #24
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Schedule 40 PVC in Chicago?


I agree. A quick browse through Chicago's version of articles 3xx gives the impression that they don't recognize nonmetallic conduit as a legal wiring method at all.
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Old 12-20-2011, 05:28 PM   #25
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Schedule 40 PVC in Chicago?


Quote:
Originally Posted by McSteve View Post
I agree. A quick browse through Chicago's version of articles 3xx gives the impression that they don't recognize nonmetallic conduit as a legal wiring method at all.
Basically for all the trades they don't recognize any materials or methods that are designed to reduce material or labor costs!
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Old 12-20-2011, 08:00 PM   #26
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Schedule 40 PVC in Chicago?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Missouri Bound View Post
What has St. Clair county have to do with Chicago? And I suspect that the unions have the final say so in Chicago, no matter what the AHJ or building codes say. Years ago while doing carpentry on a Chicago mall project the scenario was, when mixing concrete for the project was 1. Union electrician plugged in and turned on the cement mixer. 2. Union carpenter added the concrete to the mixer while 3. Union plumber turned on the hose to add the water. And the reverse when each batch was finished. And there is absulutely NO exaggeration in this post.
Did you read the 2005 NEC codes?

compare them to 2009 NEC codes, and the new 2011 NEC codes, any changes? If not, there's your answer.

That said, I call complete BS. Per UNION CONTRACTS A UNION PLUMBER is NOT ALLOWED to have ANYTHING to do with anything outside of Plumbing and Pipefitting for a building or home.

And a UNION ELECTRICIAN is not allowed to plug equipment used by the other trades into anything, if it's not directly a part of the Electricians job to do the Electrical Work. The only thing a UNION Electrician can plug in, is his Drill, Sawzall, or a work light that HE/SHE is using. And furthermore, a UNION Carpenter, will NOT handle concrete, or handle ANYTHING at a construction site that is two forms or lower. That falls onto the UNION Cement Mason.

Try again, I've played this game before, and have worked with Union guys before too, Unions have nothing to do with policy or procedure, or building codes. That is purely legislature that determines building codes. As far as JOB descriptions, that's what the UNIONs do, is they negotiate TERMS OF WORKING CONDITIONS. Which believe it or not, SAVES MONEY, and IMPROVES QUALITY of the job. I.e. I call complete BS you're going to pay an Electrician $40 an HOUR to mix and pour concrete, set rebar, and make concrete forms and slabs, when you can pay the CEMENT MASON $25 an hour to do that job.

You're not going to pay a Plumber $35 an hour to spray water into a Cement Mixer, when the CEMENT MASON does that AS A PART OF THE CEMENT MASONS JOB for $25 an hour.

Furthermore, DO YOU THINK THE UNIONS will PERMIT another Union Trade to do that Union Trades job? That's the point of a Union, that is why you have the "United Brotherhood of Carpenters and Jointers", The United Brotherhood of Painters Plasterers and Cement Masons", "The United Association of PLumbers and Pipefitters" etc. Because if the job does not fall into that specific craft/trade of Construction, it does not fall into that Union, therefore, per UNION policies, another UNION will NOT do another UNIONS job. That COMPLETELY removes the entire reason of a Union to exist.

And cost wise, I call BS because no contractor is going to pay such insane pay rates for the same jobs they can have for OTHER Union Tradesmen for MUCH cheaper.

Now, that said and done with.

Compare NEC Codes, that will be the answer. Waiting on response via e-mail to the Chicago City Hall to get the answer direct.
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Old 12-20-2011, 08:06 PM   #27
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Schedule 40 PVC in Chicago?


First of all, I was on that job and I described it exactly as it happened.
Secondly, Your long winded responses and comments have more mis-information than most on this board...that began with your "red wire transfer" reply.

And again I ask...what does St. Clair have to do with Chicago?

I suggest that you answer only what you actually know about, not what you think you know. And I do know that if anyone knows BS it certainly must be you.
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Old 12-20-2011, 08:23 PM   #28
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Schedule 40 PVC in Chicago?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Missouri Bound View Post
First of all, I was on that job and I described it exactly as it happened.
Secondly, Your long winded responses and comments have more mis-information than most on this board...that began with your "red wire transfer" reply.

And again I ask...what does St. Clair have to do with Chicago?

I suggest that you answer only what you actually know about, not what you think you know. And I do know that if anyone knows BS it certainly must be you.
St Clair is a county in Illinoise, which is the same state you can guess which city is in? Oh crap, it's Chicago!

SSSSOOO, what happens when you have NEC (NATIONAL ELECTRIC CODE) numbers that are cited by the state of ILLINOISE per its REFERENCES TO STATE Electrical Guidelines, and you somehow get someone with a copy of the latest NEC Book?

What happens, is you take Article 250-64B NEC, and then see what that article says in the newest edition.

And THEN you go HERE http://www.cityofchicago.org/city/en.html and then you send them the code reference in the NEC, and you ask, "HEY, I WAS TALKING TO SOME GUY ON THE INTERNET AND WE FOUND AN ONLINE DOCUMENT STATING ARTICLE 25-64B NEC REQUIRING THE GROUND TO BE IN PVC, CAN PVC BE USED AS CONDUIT IN A RESIDENTIAL SETTING?"

Then, what they will say in response is this:

"Oh, yeah it's ok, here are some other references for Electrical work found here here and here" OR, "Oh no, I'm sorry that's outdated, to see our current Electrical Code, view this this and this"

And then do you know what happens then?

You get your answer.

Holy freeholies.

And BTW, A Travel wire is the same as a Transfer, FYI.

Furthermore, I call complete and total BS that was the set-up your construction site had. Do you know why? Cement Masons Unit would have exploded over the Electrical Brotherhood, United Brotherhood of Carpenters and Jointers, and the United Association of Plumbers and Pipefitters, so much to the point that contractor who hired them to do that job violated contracts, and each other Union violated their own contracts for working conditions.

I call BS.

EDIT

Also, the Plasterers and Cement Masons Union, would be suing the living crap out of the other Unions for doing THEIR work, when each UNION has signed AGREEMENTS and LEGAL CONTRACTS that they would NOT do another Unions work.

Last edited by Gary in WA; 12-20-2011 at 10:49 PM. Reason: removed name calling as per forum rules.
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Old 12-20-2011, 08:24 PM   #29
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Schedule 40 PVC in Chicago?


There are many examples of union work rules that did not lead to productive use of maintenance resources! Take changing a pump for example, it requires a minimum of three unions to be involved, electricians, pipefitters and millrights. In reality, the people does it really take to do that job?

There are many more examples but especially in the maintenance crafts each union tries to protect their niche and really is concerned about lowering costs and raising productivity. This is especially true in the Chicago area but also could be seen in many other Northeastern and Midwestern areas.
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Old 12-20-2011, 08:28 PM   #30
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Schedule 40 PVC in Chicago?


Now that the OP has been scared off back in the first few posts of page 1, the takeaway lesson from this is that Chicago has their own, completely independent electrical code, which includes NEC article numbers purely to make it more convenient for electricians familiar with the NEC to look stuff up.

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