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Old 12-19-2011, 12:17 PM   #1
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Schedule 40 PVC in Chicago?


The 1/2" EMT that holds the conductors that power my garage is corroding. I want to replace it with 3/4" Schedule 40 PVC, but I live in Chicago. Is this allowable by Chicago code?

Am I allowed to use Schedule 40 indoors if it's under concrete and I run a separate ground wire? Again, allowed by Chicago code standards.

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Old 12-19-2011, 12:22 PM   #2
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Schedule 40 PVC in Chicago?


The seperate ground wire is not allowed by anyone's standards. All conductors for a circuit have to be in the same raceway.

As far as PVC vs. EMT in Chicago...who the hell knows...I sure don't...someone that does will be along later though.

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Old 12-19-2011, 12:34 PM   #3
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Schedule 40 PVC in Chicago?


I think he meant adding new ground wire along with the existing conductors when he pulls them into the new conduit. Presumably the EMT was being used as the EGC.
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Old 12-19-2011, 12:38 PM   #4
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Schedule 40 PVC in Chicago?


Yeah, sorry for the confusion: I plan to pull a ground wire along with my new conductors in my new pipe. I just need to know if I can use PVC in Chicago.
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Old 12-19-2011, 04:09 PM   #5
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Schedule 40 PVC in Chicago?


Why not just call the Building Inspector dept at City Hall and ask?
Quick read of their building code:
"
18-27-300.37 Aboveground wiring methods.

Aboveground conductors shall be installed in rigid metal conduit, in intermediate metal conduit, in electrical metallic tubing, or as busways. In locations accessible to qualified persons only, open runs of Type MV cables, bare conductors, and bare busbars shall also be permitted. Busbars shall be permitted to be either copper or aluminum.
(Added Coun. J. 11-3-99, p. 13842, 5)"


I don't see PVC in that but code interpretation is very complicated and there may be another citation that allows it. Need an official ruling or perhaps a Chicago electrician will weigh in.
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Old 12-19-2011, 06:03 PM   #6
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Schedule 40 PVC in Chicago?


When I lived there you could not and that was only a few years ago.

You are not even supposed to change out an outlet without a permit and that has to be signed by an electrician, given that, there is a lot of stuff that gets done without permits.

Everything needs to be in EMT or short greenfield whips unless things have changed which I highly doubt.
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Old 12-19-2011, 10:23 PM   #7
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Schedule 40 PVC in Chicago?


Quote:
Originally Posted by rjgogo View Post
You are not even supposed to change out an outlet without a permit and that has to be signed by an UNION electrician, given that, there is a lot of stuff that gets done without permits.
I corrected your post to show the real cause of the problems!
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Old 12-19-2011, 11:45 PM   #8
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Schedule 40 PVC in Chicago?


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Originally Posted by Msradell View Post
I corrected your post to show the real cause of the problems!
You are correct sir, and frankly that is what I meant to say. Union protection is what it is all about, it was not long ago that they allowed PVC DWV pipes and that is pretty limited
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Old 12-20-2011, 01:17 AM   #9
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Schedule 40 PVC in Chicago?


Quote:
Originally Posted by rjgogo View Post
When I lived there you could not and that was only a few years ago.

You are not even supposed to change out an outlet without a permit and that has to be signed by an electrician, given that, there is a lot of stuff that gets done without permits.

Everything needs to be in EMT or short greenfield whips unless things have changed which I highly doubt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Msradell View Post
I corrected your post to show the real cause of the problems!
With respect, that is highly false. Union has nothing to do with any of it.

The reason why a city, county, or state legislature would require an electrician sign off on something, is because they want a Journeyman (any Electricain who has been licensed for 3 or more years for residential, or 5 or more years for commercial) to sign off on something, is because they want a license to legally hunt down and beat into a bloody pulp if bad workmanship is found.

Any electrical work done, has to fall back onto an Electricians License, without an Electrician to sign off that the work is good, and complient, means there is no one in any legal position to say "Yes, this electrical circuit is installed to spec, is properly functional, and meets NEC and Fire Code regulations for installation, and if for any reason a fire results of this work, or someone gets electricuted, I will sign my butt onto a golden platter for buffalo bill when I go to prison for saying it was a good job when it wasn't".

THAT is why they require an Electrician to sign off on it. Even on a Maintenance Team, even though everyone on a Maintenance Team will be competent enough to install outlets, recepticles, light fixtures, light bulbs, ovens, water heaters, etc. They always have a Licensed Electrician, and a Licensed Plumber, and a Licensed HVAC-R Tech as Subject Matter Experts to teach/inspect/sign off on work that has been done.

It's the Maintenance Teams way of saying yes, we are doing the job right, and we have XXXXXX to confirm we did the job right.

All Plumbing Work must be either done, or inspected by a Plumber, and all Electrical work has to be either done, or inspected by a Licensed Electrician, and any Heating, Ventilation, Air Conditioning and Refrigeration work has to be done, or inspected by a Licensed HVAC-R Technician.

Because they want a license to follow, and they one someones behind if something goes wrong. It's why an Apprentice works under a Journeymans License. The Journeyman is ultimately responsible for all work that is done. That is because that man/woman's license is the legal document that states if the work is done right or not.

Which if it's a private homeowner, if that homeowner touches ANYTHING in the home, that homeowner is 100% liable for any/all damages or medical expenses that occur from doing said work. That's why you have homeowners insurance.

It's also why permits are required for almost everything, because it creates a paper trail that work was done, with the type of work, and extent of the project listed on the paper.

And a lot of city's/towns/county's want Licensed Electricians, Plumbers, HVAC-R Techs etc. to sign off on stuff, so they know its code compliant. Because of suburbs like those you'll see in Seattle, you screw up an outlet job in a condo, you'll take out 5 - 10 other Residences. Even move on to other houses or buildings beside it.

Just in California a few years ago, it was a bad install on a light fixture that caused 7 houses to burn down, because the fire spread from one house to another because of proximity, all caused because of a bad wiring job.

THAT is what the Tradesman's signature is for. If it turns out to be a bad job, per the NEC, Electricians are 100% liable for EVERYTHING that happens if their wiring job wasn't too code, or if anyform of electrical issue occurs taht creates damage/expenses.

It's all about liability. And also, many city/town/counties, don't trust the home owner to know jack squat about anything. Because of "Red Neck fixes" you come across all the time of people "winging it", it's why you have so much paperwork. Even to do a few PMs, you need a papertrail to confirm it was done to cover your backside. And to cover your Employers backside, or in a homeowners case, the homeowners backside.

Unions have absolutely nothing in anyway to do with any of it. It's the Lawyers who want quick cash on the go that have to do with it.

That said, PVC, and CPVC, and ABS are all still DWVs. PEX is not rated as DWV, and Copper is simply far too expensive to use as a DWV.

EDIT:

Regarding PVC, PVC i've seen used a lot as conduit, because it's non-conductive. Around some fuel lines you'll see PVC conduit for electrical wiring. You'll also find a lot of PVC Conduit in Schools, and large commercial buildings. Walmart in Arlington, WA for instance, uses both PVC and aluminum conduits, for the main connections from the breakers they'll use the aluminum conduit, then after a few feet (10-20 or so) they'll switch it to PVC.

You will also see a lot of PVC for underground cables for both residential, and commerical. (at least I've seen quite a bit of it so far) PVC is very favorable, because unlike the metal conduits, you can put PVC Tubing into a "heater" and create bends and angles into it, and use a single length of pipe for 20 feet at a time with multiple angles, instead of using 2-30 different pipes and fittings.

Costco Everett has nothing but PVC Conduit everywhere last time I was there.

As far as Residential goes, only place I've seen PVC Conduit was to protect underground wiring, not above ground wiring, unless I'm misunderstanding the OP.

EDIT: DISCLAIMER!!!

You need to check with local code

Last edited by BigGuy01; 12-20-2011 at 01:37 AM.
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Old 12-20-2011, 09:08 AM   #10
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Schedule 40 PVC in Chicago?


Have you ever lived or spent any measurable time in Chicago. If you had you would know that the city has a history of corruption and pandering.

Google McCormick place and look at how business has been lost there due to crazy union rules. It used to be you could not plug in an electric cord to a socket when you exhibited there. It had to be done by a union electrician. Those rules have started to ease but many are still there.

I'm okay with Unions but Chicago has taken to the next level.

A good joke about it is how many teamsters does it take to change a light bulb, Five, you got a problem with that?
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Old 12-20-2011, 09:21 AM   #11
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Schedule 40 PVC in Chicago?


Quote:
Originally Posted by BigGuy01 View Post
With respect, that is highly false. Union has nothing to do with any of it.

The reason why a city, county, or state legislature would require an electrician sign off on something, is because they want a Journeyman (any Electricain who has been licensed for 3 or more years for residential, or 5 or more years for commercial) to sign off on something, is because they want a license to legally hunt down and beat into a bloody pulp if bad workmanship is found.

Any electrical work done, has to fall back onto an Electricians License, without an Electrician to sign off that the work is good, and complient, means there is no one in any legal position to say "Yes, this electrical circuit is installed to spec, is properly functional, and meets NEC and Fire Code regulations for installation, and if for any reason a fire results of this work, or someone gets electricuted, I will sign my butt onto a golden platter for buffalo bill when I go to prison for saying it was a good job when it wasn't".

THAT is why they require an Electrician to sign off on it. Even on a Maintenance Team, even though everyone on a Maintenance Team will be competent enough to install outlets, recepticles, light fixtures, light bulbs, ovens, water heaters, etc. They always have a Licensed Electrician, and a Licensed Plumber, and a Licensed HVAC-R Tech as Subject Matter Experts to teach/inspect/sign off on work that has been done.

It's the Maintenance Teams way of saying yes, we are doing the job right, and we have XXXXXX to confirm we did the job right.

All Plumbing Work must be either done, or inspected by a Plumber, and all Electrical work has to be either done, or inspected by a Licensed Electrician, and any Heating, Ventilation, Air Conditioning and Refrigeration work has to be done, or inspected by a Licensed HVAC-R Technician.

Because they want a license to follow, and they one someones behind if something goes wrong. It's why an Apprentice works under a Journeymans License. The Journeyman is ultimately responsible for all work that is done. That is because that man/woman's license is the legal document that states if the work is done right or not.

Which if it's a private homeowner, if that homeowner touches ANYTHING in the home, that homeowner is 100% liable for any/all damages or medical expenses that occur from doing said work. That's why you have homeowners insurance.

It's also why permits are required for almost everything, because it creates a paper trail that work was done, with the type of work, and extent of the project listed on the paper.

And a lot of city's/towns/county's want Licensed Electricians, Plumbers, HVAC-R Techs etc. to sign off on stuff, so they know its code compliant. Because of suburbs like those you'll see in Seattle, you screw up an outlet job in a condo, you'll take out 5 - 10 other Residences. Even move on to other houses or buildings beside it.

Just in California a few years ago, it was a bad install on a light fixture that caused 7 houses to burn down, because the fire spread from one house to another because of proximity, all caused because of a bad wiring job.

THAT is what the Tradesman's signature is for. If it turns out to be a bad job, per the NEC, Electricians are 100% liable for EVERYTHING that happens if their wiring job wasn't too code, or if anyform of electrical issue occurs taht creates damage/expenses.

It's all about liability. And also, many city/town/counties, don't trust the home owner to know jack squat about anything. Because of "Red Neck fixes" you come across all the time of people "winging it", it's why you have so much paperwork. Even to do a few PMs, you need a papertrail to confirm it was done to cover your backside. And to cover your Employers backside, or in a homeowners case, the homeowners backside.

Unions have absolutely nothing in anyway to do with any of it. It's the Lawyers who want quick cash on the go that have to do with it.

That said, PVC, and CPVC, and ABS are all still DWVs. PEX is not rated as DWV, and Copper is simply far too expensive to use as a DWV.

EDIT:

Regarding PVC, PVC i've seen used a lot as conduit, because it's non-conductive. Around some fuel lines you'll see PVC conduit for electrical wiring. You'll also find a lot of PVC Conduit in Schools, and large commercial buildings. Walmart in Arlington, WA for instance, uses both PVC and aluminum conduits, for the main connections from the breakers they'll use the aluminum conduit, then after a few feet (10-20 or so) they'll switch it to PVC.

You will also see a lot of PVC for underground cables for both residential, and commerical. (at least I've seen quite a bit of it so far) PVC is very favorable, because unlike the metal conduits, you can put PVC Tubing into a "heater" and create bends and angles into it, and use a single length of pipe for 20 feet at a time with multiple angles, instead of using 2-30 different pipes and fittings.

Costco Everett has nothing but PVC Conduit everywhere last time I was there.

As far as Residential goes, only place I've seen PVC Conduit was to protect underground wiring, not above ground wiring, unless I'm misunderstanding the OP.

EDIT: DISCLAIMER!!!

You need to check with local code
Come to omaha ne and tell me the plumbers union local 16 has nothing to do with writing plumbing codes!
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Old 12-20-2011, 09:52 AM   #12
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Schedule 40 PVC in Chicago?


Geez, I wonder which one of the above posters is in a union...

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Old 12-20-2011, 11:43 AM   #13
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Schedule 40 PVC in Chicago?


Quote:
Originally Posted by BigGuy01 View Post
With respect, that is highly false. Union has nothing to do with any of it.

The reason why a city, county, or state legislature would require an electrician sign off on something, is because they want a Journeyman (any Electricain who has been licensed for 3 or more years for residential, or 5 or more years for commercial) to sign off on something, is because they want a license to legally hunt down and beat into a bloody pulp if bad workmanship is found.

Any electrical work done, has to fall back onto an Electricians License, without an Electrician to sign off that the work is good, and complient, means there is no one in any legal position to say "Yes, this electrical circuit is installed to spec, is properly functional, and meets NEC and Fire Code regulations for installation, and if for any reason a fire results of this work, or someone gets electricuted, I will sign my butt onto a golden platter for buffalo bill when I go to prison for saying it was a good job when it wasn't".

THAT is why they require an Electrician to sign off on it. Even on a Maintenance Team, even though everyone on a Maintenance Team will be competent enough to install outlets, recepticles, light fixtures, light bulbs, ovens, water heaters, etc. They always have a Licensed Electrician, and a Licensed Plumber, and a Licensed HVAC-R Tech as Subject Matter Experts to teach/inspect/sign off on work that has been done.

It's the Maintenance Teams way of saying yes, we are doing the job right, and we have XXXXXX to confirm we did the job right.

All Plumbing Work must be either done, or inspected by a Plumber, and all Electrical work has to be either done, or inspected by a Licensed Electrician, and any Heating, Ventilation, Air Conditioning and Refrigeration work has to be done, or inspected by a Licensed HVAC-R Technician.

Because they want a license to follow, and they one someones behind if something goes wrong. It's why an Apprentice works under a Journeymans License. The Journeyman is ultimately responsible for all work that is done. That is because that man/woman's license is the legal document that states if the work is done right or not.

Which if it's a private homeowner, if that homeowner touches ANYTHING in the home, that homeowner is 100% liable for any/all damages or medical expenses that occur from doing said work. That's why you have homeowners insurance.

It's also why permits are required for almost everything, because it creates a paper trail that work was done, with the type of work, and extent of the project listed on the paper.

And a lot of city's/towns/county's want Licensed Electricians, Plumbers, HVAC-R Techs etc. to sign off on stuff, so they know its code compliant. Because of suburbs like those you'll see in Seattle, you screw up an outlet job in a condo, you'll take out 5 - 10 other Residences. Even move on to other houses or buildings beside it.

Just in California a few years ago, it was a bad install on a light fixture that caused 7 houses to burn down, because the fire spread from one house to another because of proximity, all caused because of a bad wiring job.

THAT is what the Tradesman's signature is for. If it turns out to be a bad job, per the NEC, Electricians are 100% liable for EVERYTHING that happens if their wiring job wasn't too code, or if anyform of electrical issue occurs taht creates damage/expenses.

It's all about liability. And also, many city/town/counties, don't trust the home owner to know jack squat about anything. Because of "Red Neck fixes" you come across all the time of people "winging it", it's why you have so much paperwork. Even to do a few PMs, you need a papertrail to confirm it was done to cover your backside. And to cover your Employers backside, or in a homeowners case, the homeowners backside.

Unions have absolutely nothing in anyway to do with any of it. It's the Lawyers who want quick cash on the go that have to do with it.

That said, PVC, and CPVC, and ABS are all still DWVs. PEX is not rated as DWV, and Copper is simply far too expensive to use as a DWV.

EDIT:

Regarding PVC, PVC i've seen used a lot as conduit, because it's non-conductive. Around some fuel lines you'll see PVC conduit for electrical wiring. You'll also find a lot of PVC Conduit in Schools, and large commercial buildings. Walmart in Arlington, WA for instance, uses both PVC and aluminum conduits, for the main connections from the breakers they'll use the aluminum conduit, then after a few feet (10-20 or so) they'll switch it to PVC.

You will also see a lot of PVC for underground cables for both residential, and commerical. (at least I've seen quite a bit of it so far) PVC is very favorable, because unlike the metal conduits, you can put PVC Tubing into a "heater" and create bends and angles into it, and use a single length of pipe for 20 feet at a time with multiple angles, instead of using 2-30 different pipes and fittings.

Costco Everett has nothing but PVC Conduit everywhere last time I was there.

As far as Residential goes, only place I've seen PVC Conduit was to protect underground wiring, not above ground wiring, unless I'm misunderstanding the OP.

You need to check with local code
Sir, Your rants are tedious and less than informative Examples:
1. Your above statement in Bold about CPVC. CPVC is not rated for DWV nor does it come in sizes that it could be used for such.
2. A previous post about red transfer wires was so much BS.

Your posts are confusing to the average DIYer.
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Old 12-20-2011, 03:38 PM   #14
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Schedule 40 PVC in Chicago?


Quote:
Originally Posted by rjniles View Post
Sir, Your rants are tedious and less than informative Examples:
1. Your above statement in Bold about CPVC. CPVC is not rated for DWV nor does it come in sizes that it could be used for such.
2. A previous post about red transfer wires was so much BS.

Your posts are confusing to the average DIYer.
I'm actually NOT Union, I just grow tired of people whining about them when they don't even have a clue of how political processes work. I can find NO laws for either Chicago, or Nebraska that have ANYTHING that says "Union" in regards to who can do electrical work etc.

For the permits for Chicago, it just states a Licensed Journeyman Electrician or above. (which is 5 or more years for commercial, or 3 or more years for residential)

Now, that said, CPVC can be found as large as 6'' ID. CPVC is used in DWV systems in place of iron, steel, or aluminum piping when conditions would normally corrode metal piping, THAT is when CPVC is used, because it will not corrode as much as the metal pipes will. How do I know? I installed 20ft of it several weeks ago connecting a building to a sewer main.

In fact, if you wanted, and had the money, you can get up to 10'' ID on CPVC for schedule 40 and schedule 60 depending on the thickness you need. Did you know there is also foam-core PVC you can use for a DWV system? DWV is not a pressurized system, hense how the UPC allows the use of CPVC, even foam-core PVC.

And if what I say is confusing to a DIYer, then that DIYer needs more education towards the topic, because they are doing work they shouldn't be doing because they simply don't know enough to do it.

And BTW, CPVC, is STRONGER than PVC, it survives temperatures up to 200 friggen degrees!!! It is used for pressurized, and non pressurized systems, it is even used in high elevations, aircraft (commercial air planes), in the ocean, and for the skyscrapers. Its more fire retardent than PVC is, it's stronger, more flexible, and be applied to any Plumbing system. The fact someone would even say you can't use CPVC when it's encouraged to be used more often than PVC (but cost makes it unrealistic in that regard) and is also used in the NASA SPace Shuttles, and Space Station, with utmost respect, that screams ignorance.

Last edited by BigGuy01; 12-20-2011 at 03:46 PM.
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Old 12-20-2011, 03:57 PM   #15
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Schedule 40 PVC in Chicago?


Quote:
Originally Posted by BigGuy01 View Post
I'm actually NOT Union, I just grow tired of people whining about them when they don't even have a clue of how political processes work. I can find NO laws for either Chicago, or Nebraska that have ANYTHING that says "Union" in regards to who can do electrical work etc.

For the permits for Chicago, it just states a Licensed Journeyman Electrician or above. (which is 5 or more years for commercial, or 3 or more years for residential)

Now, that said, CPVC can be found as large as 6'' ID. CPVC is used in DWV systems in place of iron, steel, or aluminum piping when conditions would normally corrode metal piping, THAT is when CPVC is used, because it will not corrode as much as the metal pipes will. How do I know? I installed 20ft of it several weeks ago connecting a building to a sewer main.

In fact, if you wanted, and had the money, you can get up to 10'' ID on CPVC for schedule 40 and schedule 60 depending on the thickness you need. Did you know there is also foam-core PVC you can use for a DWV system? DWV is not a pressurized system, hense how the UPC allows the use of CPVC, even foam-core PVC.

And if what I say is confusing to a DIYer, then that DIYer needs more education towards the topic, because they are doing work they shouldn't be doing because they simply don't know enough to do it.

And BTW, CPVC, is STRONGER than PVC, it survives temperatures up to 200 friggen degrees!!! It is used for pressurized, and non pressurized systems, it is even used in high elevations, aircraft (commercial air planes), in the ocean, and for the skyscrapers. Its more fire retardent than PVC is, it's stronger, more flexible, and be applied to any Plumbing system. The fact someone would even say you can't use CPVC when it's encouraged to be used more often than PVC (but cost makes it unrealistic in that regard) and is also used in the NASA SPace Shuttles, and Space Station, with utmost respect, that screams ignorance.
its the local boards!

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