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Old 11-12-2008, 03:45 PM   #1
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HI;

Note: The conduit I am talking about here is the Gray PVC ridgid conduit that is UL listed and is stamped for indoor and outdoor use. I just wanted to mention this incase this isn't what they call RNC.

I am looking for a clarification on Ridgid non-metalic conduit use. 352.10 (F) says it can be used in exposed areas that are not subject to physical damage. I know that the NEC is not very clear about physical damage.

Is RNC regarded the same way BX and the other flexiable conduits are in terms of not being alowed to be exposed?

Would RNC be allowed to connect a sub panel to the main panel, that is about 2 feet away, The RNC would be mounted on the same boards as the panels (2 boards that join in the corner of the room).

Thanks
Jamie


Last edited by jamiedolan; 11-12-2008 at 03:47 PM. Reason: more info
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Old 11-12-2008, 03:55 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by jamiedolan View Post
HI;

Note: The conduit I am talking about here is the Gray PVC ridgid conduit that is UL listed and is stamped for indoor and outdoor use. I just wanted to mention this incase this isn't what they call RNC.

I am looking for a clarification on Ridgid non-metalic conduit use. 352.10 (F) says it can be used in exposed areas that are not subject to physical damage. I know that the NEC is not very clear about physical damage.

Is RNC regarded the same way BX and the other flexiable conduits are in terms of not being alowed to be exposed?
They are all allowed to be exposed. It just depends on where they are exposed at. In your basement, yes. In a loading dock where trailers back in, not a good idea.

Quote:
Would RNC be allowed to connect a sub panel to the main panel, that is about 2 feet away, The RNC would be mounted on the same boards as the panels (2 boards that join in the corner of the room).

Thanks
Jamie
Yes. This is very common. I also like to use plastic bushings on the ends of the conduit adapters, to protect the wire as it exits the pipe.

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Old 11-12-2008, 04:13 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by InPhase277 View Post
They are all allowed to be exposed. It just depends on where they are exposed at. In your basement, yes. In a loading dock where trailers back in, not a good idea.
Yes. This is very common. I also like to use plastic bushings on the ends of the conduit adapters, to protect the wire as it exits the pipe.
Excellent, Thank you. I got really worried for a minute when I re-read the code and was worried I wasn't going to meet code.

Some quick snap shots below, I used the plasic bushings. The insides of the pipe are all clean and smooth.

On my old panel, you can see in the last photo, I really want to change out the old poorly mounted green board that is behind the panel (to the new piece of plywood sitting below it). There is no external disconnect, so while I can have the box off, the feeders what are AL SE cable comming into the box would remain live. I am not worried about any safety issues, I can lift the panel away from the wall while I mount the plywood without any problem. My only concern is if that old SE cable will handle a little bit of movement - being lifted away from the wall a couple inches, any thoughts?

Thanks
Jamie

Rnc-img_4452.jpg
Rnc-img_4453.jpg
Rnc-img_4454.jpg
Rnc-img_4455.jpg
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Old 11-12-2008, 05:10 PM   #4
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Why are you leaving the old panel?

I'd yank it and put the new one in it's place.

Your SE can be disconnected by pulling the meter.

Not by you or me of course


We (contractors) are not allowed to pull meters here but it's done all the time. Yesterday in fact. I'm not going to turn a 15 minute breaker replacement into a half day scheduled event involving all the entities. I have too much respect for common sense.
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Old 11-12-2008, 05:31 PM   #5
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I agree! Do you really need both panels of capacity? I would replace the backboard and put the new panel right there. Someone I know (hmmm) just did this last month changing out an old small 1970 Murray panel for a new 40 space Siemens. Much more room, cleaner looking install rather than an add-on. Just take the time to plan it out first, don't forget to Sharpie mark all the cable sheathing for location and breaker amperage.
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Old 11-12-2008, 07:22 PM   #6
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I agree! Do you really need both panels of capacity? I would replace the backboard and put the new panel right there. Someone I know (hmmm) just did this last month changing out an old small 1970 Murray panel for a new 40 space Siemens. Much more room, cleaner looking install rather than an add-on. Just take the time to plan it out first, don't forget to Sharpie mark all the cable sheathing for location and breaker amperage.
HI;
Thanks for the tips. The problem I had is that the new panel has a 200A main and I only have 100A service. They wanted over 50$ for a 100A breaker, and that would be a regular breaker I would have to back feed.

These panels are really fairly cheap, $148. So I don't really mind buying another one when we do the 200A service upgrade.

You might have noticed as well, that in my old box, all of the neutral wires and ground wires are connected at the very top of the box, and they will all have to be extended in a new box, which seems kind of sloppy to me. So my plan is to re-wire as many circuits as I can and drop them right into the new box. Then once I have 200A service, I can put a 125A breaker in the new service entrance panel, and feed this panel with the same #2 wire that it is going into it now. Then when the new 200A panel is in, I will put some of the heavier load items in the main panel.

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Old 11-13-2008, 11:41 AM   #7
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That conduit needs some support. Jamie you can use butt splices in the panel to extend the wires if you want to. I agree with the others about using the new panel for the service. Take care of your service first, then concern yourself with the sub panel.
Your going to have to address this service sooner or later.
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Old 11-13-2008, 03:33 PM   #8
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That conduit needs some support. Jamie you can use butt splices in the panel to extend the wires if you want to. I agree with the others about using the new panel for the service. Take care of your service first, then concern yourself with the sub panel.
Your going to have to address this service sooner or later.
Absoultly, I have several clamps ready to put on it, one is sitting on there right now. I just had to find some little spacers as the pipe is away from the board about a inch, which is further than the clamps reach.

I know I have to address the main, I honest just don't have the money to deal with it at the moment, I am in the midst of a kitchen remodel among other things. I plan to move the meter to the far side of the house when I do the upgrade to 200A, so it is out of the way of the trees, patio, etc. I expect to have to have a liceansed electrican invloved in the service upgrade. I plan to run 2/0 from the new service drop to the main panel, which will be about $600-$800 worth of wire alone. So when I have the $2,000 available to do the service upgrade, I will do it and gladly replace the old pushmatic panel. Hopefully in the next several months.

Thanks

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Old 11-13-2008, 05:09 PM   #9
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ITs hard to tell in the picture, but it almost looks like you have a clearance issue, How far off the wall is your existing panel? and how far away does your new panel start off the face of your existing panel?


Basically what I'm saying is that your old panel needs 30" width and 36" deep of working space, and it almost looks like your new panel is in the way of the 36" deep required space.
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Old 11-13-2008, 05:56 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris75 View Post
ITs hard to tell in the picture, but it almost looks like you have a clearance issue, How far off the wall is your existing panel? and how far away does your new panel start off the face of your existing panel?


Basically what I'm saying is that your old panel needs 30" width and 36" deep of working space, and it almost looks like your new panel is in the way of the 36" deep required space.
The new panel is out 24" from where the old green panel board.

If you drew a straight line across the room from the edge of the old panel going out, you would not hit the new panel.

Does the 30" width need to be each side, both sides or total? I mounted the new panel on a board that is about 59" wide.

I read the 36" requirment to mean that just straight out from the panel you need 36" with nothing directly in the way.

Did I misunderstand that?

Thank you.
Jamie
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Old 11-13-2008, 05:57 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris75 View Post
ITs hard to tell in the picture, but it almost looks like you have a clearance issue, How far off the wall is your existing panel? and how far away does your new panel start off the face of your existing panel?


Basically what I'm saying is that your old panel needs 30" width and 36" deep of working space, and it almost looks like your new panel is in the way of the 36" deep required space.
The existing panel - on the green board.. The green board is about 1" 1/4" away from the wall that the panel is mounted to.

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Old 11-13-2008, 06:27 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by jamiedolan View Post

Does the 30" width need to be each side, both sides or total? I mounted the new panel on a board that is about 59" wide.
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Old 11-13-2008, 06:52 PM   #13
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They wanted over 50$ for a 100A breaker, and that would be a regular breaker I would have to back feed
I'd still do it.....even though the back fed breaker wouldn't be screwed to the panel. I spend a good amount of my time cleaning up things and, IMO, you are just adding to the mess.
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Old 11-15-2008, 04:27 PM   #14
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I'd still do it.....even though the back fed breaker wouldn't be screwed to the panel. I spend a good amount of my time cleaning up things and, IMO, you are just adding to the mess.
The connection box in the joist connected with EMT looks really nice and clean. I am going to finish making those connections and figure out how many breaks I really need, - if I need a second panel or not. If I do, then I will put a new panel where the old one was, otherwise I will make this one the main panel.

I show you some more photos once I get the rest of the branch circuits cleaned up and connected.

Thanks for your suggestions.

Jamie
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Old 11-15-2008, 04:43 PM   #15
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Attachment 6007 gbbbbbbbbbbbbb
It looks like my new panel is fine with the 30" based on how I understand your picture, it is a 14" wire panel on a 58" board. Thanks for the photo diagram. I don't think the old panel has enough room, but when service is upgraded, I am planing on putting up a 39 inch wide panel there if I end up putting a box / panel there.

This is what my setup looks like right now:

Rnc-electrical-panel-placement-diagram.jpg

Thanks
Jamie

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