Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Electrical

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 09-09-2010, 01:07 PM   #1
I ask the impossible!
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Royal Oak, Michigan
Posts: 1,069
Blog Entries: 7
Share |
Default

Rewiring older house


Okay, I want to see if you folks could help me check my list of things that are involved in my rewiring project, I'm not making any assumptions that I can get away with skipping out on anything nor would I want to.

My home was built in 1917 and some of the original knob and tube wiring is still live, even though there are places where insulation has cracked off - those places having been found under birds nests in the attic Where upgrades have been done on the second floor, they have been done using LAMP CORD WIRE Abandoned wires were cut off, covered with tape and pushed into the wall with the end of the tape exposed. Splices have been made with no junction blocks. The garage is wired with lamp cord as well, stapled onto OSB ceilings for the lighting, hanging loosely to run to the garage openner... Who knows if it's really burried properly inside conduit, I'm not counting on it.

Yet amazingly enough, a new 100A service panel was installed by an electrician and the installation looks clean. But it's surface mounted in the first floor bedroom.

Access is no problem whatsoever, I've already pulled down all remaining lath and plaster, so the ceiling upstairs is exposed and I have open access to route all runs in the attic space and crawl space, any existing insulation is removed and will be replaced later anyway.

I have an offer of a Square D 200A service panel free from my neighbor who has some cabins up north and has panels to spare, I'd like to put this in the utility room and wire everything up and have the electric company move the meter when it's all done.

For the detached garage I'd like to run 2-2-2 aluminum in PVC conduit out to the garage where I'd like to move the 100A service panel. Eventually I'd like to have a 100A circuit for a welder in the garage, but I'd probably add that later, for now I just want to get the infrastructure in place for it and put in garage circuits for lighting, outlets and the openner.

So here's what I think I need, please tell me if I have anything wrong or need to include anything I missed:

AFCI circuit for bedroom electrical outlets, 1 circuit for the 2 bedrooms upstairs and 1 circuit for downstairs
AFCI circuit for living room
GFCI circuit for kitchen outlets (do I need 2 circuits? If I need 2 I could do 1 circuit for each side)
Dedicated circuit for refrigerator
Dedicated circuit for microwave
Dedicated circuit for range (planning on gas, does this still require a dedicated circuit?)
GFCI circuit for outside outlets (what are placement requirements, is 1 on each side of house adequate?)
lighting circuit for the whole house, including front and rear door lights (or do these need to be on a seperate circuit or with the outside outlets?)
Interconnected smoke detectors, seperate circuit
GFCI circuit for 1st floor bathroom including light and exhaust fan for 1st floor bathroom and second floor water closet
Dedicated circuit for the dryer
Dedicated circuit for the washing machine
Dedicated circuit for utility room outlets (where washer/dryer are located)
Dedicated circuit for the TV in living room might be prudent, would AFCI be required for this as well?

For all 110 outlets I plan to run 12-2 wire and 20A circuits, probably 15A for lighting but still 12-2 wire.

I'm also considering wiring ethernet and cable TV connections to all bedrooms from the living room while I'm at it.

WillK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2010, 02:18 PM   #2
RST
DIY Homeowner
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Indiana
Posts: 169
Default

Rewiring older house


You're well on your way.

Check out this thread:
NEC- National Electric code 2008
Almost everything is AFCI or GFCI required

For something this extensive, I'd recommend getting a book on the NEC from the library, they will describe how to wire an entire house.

You need 2 small appliance branch circuits (SABC) for kitchen/dr/similar.
As you described it I think you need two circuits for your baths, one for each one.

You will probably have to add numerous receptacles to meet modern spacing/distance requirements.

Permit/inspection?

Also, some states/areas have amendments to codes regarding AFCIs, TR receptacles, etc.

Good luck,
RST

RST is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2010, 02:35 PM   #3
I ask the impossible!
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Royal Oak, Michigan
Posts: 1,069
Blog Entries: 7
Default

Rewiring older house


Reading through the Michigan electric code, I don't think they're up to requiring AFCI for the living room but I know it's in 2008 NEC and I'm guessing Michigan isn't up to 2008 NEC yet, so I was going to go ahead and put the living room on AFCI.

The second floor bathroom is literally a water closet, it's a toilet in a closet with a badly wired light bulb. I'm ventilating it and wiring the light properly, and it's directly over the first floor bath... I really don't see it meriting its own circuit, but in 5 years we're planning to rebuild the second floor including a full bath and certainly there will be new circuits run at that time.

I'll be getting permits and having the necessary inspections of course... At this time I'm doing the planning to draw up plans for the permit application, I have another week or two of roof work before I'm ready to get into the electric work and I'll probably be pouring footings in the crawlspace between budget infusions too.
WillK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2010, 09:12 PM   #4
RST
DIY Homeowner
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Indiana
Posts: 169
Default

Rewiring older house


Size of bath doesn't matter, each bathroom must have its own circuit, or you can feed the receptacles in all bathrooms off one circuit, and feed the lights off another circuit (can be a general lighting circuit I believe).

In regards to one of your earlier questions, outdoor receptacles are required at the front and rear, GFCI, and covers.

Myself, I would do two lighting circuits, in case there is a problem with one you will still have some lights available.

Section 210 of the NEC code has most of the info you need.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WillK View Post
I'll be getting permits and having the necessary inspections of course... At this time I'm doing the planning to draw up plans for the permit application, I have another week or two of roof work before I'm ready to get into the electric work and I'll probably be pouring footings in the crawlspace between budget infusions too.
Good to hear about the permits

RST

Last edited by RST; 09-09-2010 at 09:17 PM.
RST is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2010, 05:29 AM   #5
I ask the impossible!
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Royal Oak, Michigan
Posts: 1,069
Blog Entries: 7
Default

Rewiring older house


Seperating the second floor lighting certainly would make sense considering the eventual plans of tearing off the second floor, so I'd be able to maintain first floor lighting during the remodelling. (Mental note, don't route first floor circuits through anything that is getting torn off later)

I'm wondering if I'm going to run into placement issues in the WC... Strictly speaking, I don't think the toilet placement under the sloped roof meets current building code, but that's presumably grandfathered... But is there anything about placement of switches being some distance away from fixtures? And if there's anything about placement of the outlet, which I don't see any real use for a GFCI outlet in a WC...
WillK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2010, 08:22 AM   #6
Member
 
joed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Welland, Ontario
Posts: 7,540
Default

Rewiring older house


First thing is you need a four wire feed not a three wire feed to the garage.
You should contact the POCO first. They will tell you where you can put your meter. You can't just put anywhere.

I would not put all the lights on one circuit. You need at least some lights on if the breaker trips.
Smokes in bedrooms must be AFCI protected.
Gas range can be on kitchen small applilance circuit.
__________________
Do not PM with questions that can be asked in a forum. I will not respond.
joed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2010, 12:21 PM   #7
I ask the impossible!
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Royal Oak, Michigan
Posts: 1,069
Blog Entries: 7
Default

Rewiring older house


I'm assuming that I just wrote down the wire designation incorrectly when I ran through Home Depot on the garage feed, it's the cable they had on hand for 100A and they didn't carry copper. I am safe running that to the garage if I bury it inside of schedule 80 PVC conduit, right?

Looking again at the Michigan electric code, clearly I see they have adopted the 2005 NEC and aren't on board with 2008. I'm having trouble finding the smoke detector stuff, is that new for the 2008 NEC or if not what are the key words I should search for?

I'm pretty comfortable that the panel location I have in mind should be okay, but I'll check. The utility room is on the back of the house, and the power is coming to the house from over head wire behind the house so the new location will shorten the wire from the utility pole. My understanding is it has to be at least 3' away from any windows, which should be no problem.
WillK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2010, 12:22 PM   #8
RST
DIY Homeowner
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Indiana
Posts: 169
Default

Rewiring older house


I think an receptacle is required within three (?) feet of a each wash basin (sink)... usually they are closer. Perhaps someone would plug in a night light, or a razor, or hair dryer? Doesn't matter, really, NEC says "all habitable spaces" need receptacles, and I think that definition is pretty broad.

Not sure if there are any restrictions about the distance from a switch to a fixture... each space must have a fixture or switched receptacle, though. Some areas (for example, bathrooms) are required to have a fixture.

RST
RST is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2010, 01:04 PM   #9
I ask the impossible!
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Royal Oak, Michigan
Posts: 1,069
Blog Entries: 7
Default

Rewiring older house


But that's the thing... There is no wash basin, only a toilet. (the second floor water closet, that is) I considered taking the toilet out, but we're going to potentially be living with the second floor as-is until our 2 children are in the pre-teen years. 1 toilet in the house might be manageable for now, but eventually it won't and I'm not certain we'll have the second floor remodel done before that point.
WillK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2010, 02:55 PM   #10
RST
DIY Homeowner
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Indiana
Posts: 169
Default

Rewiring older house


Ahh, well I'm not so sure then. Guess I'd check to see how the NEC defines a bathroom. Maybe one of the pros on here know. Or ask your inspector - he/she will have the final call anyway.

RST
RST is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2010, 03:45 PM   #11
Member
 
joed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Welland, Ontario
Posts: 7,540
Default

Rewiring older house


Quote:
Originally Posted by WillK View Post
I'm assuming that I just wrote down the wire designation incorrectly when I ran through Home Depot on the garage feed, it's the cable they had on hand for 100A and they didn't carry copper. I am safe running that to the garage if I bury it inside of schedule 80 PVC conduit, right?
Don't trust the persons at HD to sell you the correct wire. Know what you want before you go there. I think under NEC2005 if the garage is detached you are still permitted three wire feed if no other metal path( phone line, water pipe, etc).
__________________
Do not PM with questions that can be asked in a forum. I will not respond.
joed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2010, 04:09 PM   #12
I ask the impossible!
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Royal Oak, Michigan
Posts: 1,069
Blog Entries: 7
Default

Rewiring older house


NEC is actually pretty clear on this question, paraphrasing: a bathroom is an area with a basin and at least one of the following: toilet, tub/shower. Searching around, elsewhere the question came up a lot about seperated toilets and basins but since they were in the area even though they weren't still in the room, it was considered a bathroom.

In my case, there is no basin anywhere nearby. One thread I found elsewhere said this would be a building code violation, but presumably for my part I'd be grandfathered on that and I only need to provide lighting and ventilation to bring the electrical up to code.

And I do have a call in to the electrical inspector that is as of yet unreturned. But for the time being, I'm going to plan to run the WC light and vent fan off the upstairs lighting circuit and the downstairs bathroom everything off the downstairs bathroom circuit. This will be part of the plan I'll submit with my permit application

By the way, from my original post nobody caught the fact I forgot to list a circuit for the HVAC (well... for now it's just the furnace)
WillK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2010, 01:49 PM   #13
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Albany, NY
Posts: 72
Default

Rewiring older house


Don't forget you'll want to add :

1. Separate 20 AMP GFCI for under sink garbage disposal (assuming you don't have a septic tank).
2. Wire the windows for alarms as long as you have the walls open.
3. Some areas require that a cut-off exists for the power coming into the home within a certain number of feet. When I moved my panel, i had to install a cut-off outside, then run the line to the new panel. This is also a great way to work safely on your electrical panel. You can turn off power to the panel outside, and not have to worry about electrocuting yourself at the panel.
4. Install a whole-house surge protector at the panel.

Regards,
toddmanqa

Regards,
Todd

Regards,
Todd

toddmanqa is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
rewiring a fire damaged house peyton Electrical 6 04-12-2010 03:23 PM
Patio roof to house attachment question mikemobile Building & Construction 1 09-30-2008 07:51 AM
100 year old house. Rewiring myself. DVLCHLD Electrical 16 09-14-2008 10:20 PM
Rewiring a whole house greengiant Electrical 25 02-20-2008 07:30 PM
Older house, no soffit vents- what to do? nebben Roofing/Siding 3 01-24-2007 02:37 PM




Top of Page | View New Posts

Copyright © 2003-2014 Escalate Media. All Rights Reserved.