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Old 09-12-2012, 06:18 AM   #16
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Replacing Light Fixture with No Ground Wire in Home


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Originally Posted by stickboy1375 View Post
Look, if the outlet box truly doesn't contain a grounding means, then supplying GFCI protection is the next best thing, and is allowed by code.

As mentioned earlier, your existing wiring method may qualify as the grounding conductor.
I should have time to check out the panel tonight, but I don't think it's grounded. One of the things the inspector told me before we purchased the home is that the bathroom receptacles should be replaced with GFCI ones.

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Old 09-12-2012, 07:13 AM   #17
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Replacing Light Fixture with No Ground Wire in Home


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I should have time to check out the panel tonight, but I don't think it's grounded. One of the things the inspector told me before we purchased the home is that the bathroom receptacles should be replaced with GFCI ones.
They have to state that, because they know otherwise. Remember a HI is nothing more than a glorified idiot with no common sense, for the majority of them.
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Old 09-13-2012, 08:04 AM   #18
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Replacing Light Fixture with No Ground Wire in Home


OK, I opened up my panel and don't see any armored cable. I assume this means it's not grounded, right?



If so, the next step would be to install the GFCI breaker. I picked one up at Home Depot, but I'm not highly confident that the guy on the floor gave me the right advice. I asked him how to make sure I was choosing the right breaker and he said as long as it's the same brand, I'll be fine. Is that right?

The current breaker is a Murray brand, 1 pole, 15 amp, 120/240 V, MP type. The GFCI breaker I purchased is shown below. Will this work for me?





Thanks for your help everyone...I really want to make sure everything is safe.
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Old 09-13-2012, 09:19 AM   #19
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Replacing Light Fixture with No Ground Wire in Home


Again, you do not need a GFCI for the light fixture.
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Old 09-13-2012, 10:51 AM   #20
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Replacing Light Fixture with No Ground Wire in Home


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Again, you do not need a GFCI for the light fixture.
I guess I'm confused by the discussion regarding the NEC code...I thought that the last couple of posts indicated that stickboy was correct.

Regardless of whether it is "required", would there be any benefit (from a safety perspective) to adding a GFCI breaker when halogen bulbs will be used? Is there any concern about using halogen bulbs without means for grounding? Like I said in the original post, I thought I remembered reading this somewhere, but couldn't find any info on the subject in a subsequent search.

Remember, I have a bathroom receptacle on the same circuit that I'll have to replace with a GFCI version anyway, so the amount of work to replace the breaker vs the receptacle should be about the same. The breaker is more expensive, though, so obviously I don't want to spend more money on a new breaker if there's no benefit...but safety is my primary concern.
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Old 09-13-2012, 11:04 AM   #21
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Replacing Light Fixture with No Ground Wire in Home


The article that the OP cited is from the 2005. It moved to 410.42 in 2008 & 2011. The following is what the 2011 states regarding (The keyword "Permits", does not mean required, it means that you can if you wish to, install a gfci to protect):

Exception No. 3 to 410.44(B) permits a GFCI to provide
protection for personnel where luminaires are supplied by a
circuit that does not have an equipment grounding conduc-
tor. This exception provides added protection similar to that
provided for receptacles supplied from older circuits without
an equipment grounding conductor. However, it does not
allow the installation of a new circuit without an equipment
grounding conductor to supply luminaires.


Really, unless someone is going to be swinging from it, or standing in water while touching, it is your choice, but not something that is required. Personally, you are wasting your money.
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Old 09-13-2012, 11:11 AM   #22
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Replacing Light Fixture with No Ground Wire in Home


Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
The article that the OP cited is from the 2005. It moved to 410.42 in 2008 & 2011. The following is what the 2011 states regarding (The keyword "Permits", does not mean required, it means that you can if you wish to, install a gfci to protect):

Exception No. 3 to 410.44(B) permits a GFCI to provide
protection for personnel where luminaires are supplied by a
circuit that does not have an equipment grounding conduc-
tor. This exception provides added protection similar to that
provided for receptacles supplied from older circuits without
an equipment grounding conductor. However, it does not
allow the installation of a new circuit without an equipment
grounding conductor to supply luminaires.


Really, unless someone is going to be swinging from it, or standing in water while touching, it is your choice, but not something that is required. Personally, you are wasting your money.
OK, thanks...that's very helpful.
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Old 09-13-2012, 04:10 PM   #23
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Replacing Light Fixture with No Ground Wire in Home


Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
The article that the OP cited is from the 2005. It moved to 410.42 in 2008 & 2011. The following is what the 2011 states regarding (The keyword "Permits", does not mean required, it means that you can if you wish to, install a gfci to protect):

Exception No. 3 to 410.44(B) permits a GFCI to provide
protection for personnel where luminaires are supplied by a
circuit that does not have an equipment grounding conduc-
tor. This exception provides added protection similar to that
provided for receptacles supplied from older circuits without
an equipment grounding conductor. However, it does not
allow the installation of a new circuit without an equipment
grounding conductor to supply luminaires.


Really, unless someone is going to be swinging from it, or standing in water while touching, it is your choice, but not something that is required. Personally, you are wasting your money.
Greg, do you know how to read?

The NEC requires a grounding conductor at every fixture, if ONE does not exist, then he MUST either supply GFCI protection or run a grounding conductor to that outlet box... stop giving out the wrong information...
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Old 09-13-2012, 04:10 PM   #24
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Replacing Light Fixture with No Ground Wire in Home


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Originally Posted by panorama View Post
I guess I'm confused by the discussion regarding the NEC code...I thought that the last couple of posts indicated that stickboy was correct.
I am correct, Greg thinks he's an electrician....
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Old 09-13-2012, 04:16 PM   #25
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Replacing Light Fixture with No Ground Wire in Home


Hey Greg, why not try reading all of 410.42 and then 410.44...


Stop playing electrician on here before you hurt someone. And throw your NEC handbook away, it's not enforceable...
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Old 09-13-2012, 04:18 PM   #26
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Replacing Light Fixture with No Ground Wire in Home


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Really, unless someone is going to be swinging from it, or standing in water while touching, it is your choice, but not something that is required. Personally, you are wasting your money.
Oh really? You might want to re educate yourself. and personally, you are giving out wrongful advice.
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Old 09-13-2012, 04:33 PM   #27
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Replacing Light Fixture with No Ground Wire in Home




As a side note, as long as the AC type wire contains a bonding strip, then you already have a grounding conductor. So most of this conversation is a moot point.
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Old 09-13-2012, 07:13 PM   #28
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Replacing Light Fixture with No Ground Wire in Home


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OK, I opened up my panel and don't see any armored cable. I assume this means it's not grounded, right?


I don't see a main breaker or an insulated neutral. Is this a subpanel or the main service?
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Old 09-13-2012, 08:17 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
I would also like to know where he is citing this from. Just looked at the NEC 2011 edition, and there is no article cited in 410.18. Boy I love when people pull stuff out where they sit, and then cite imaginary articles, that none of the rest of us can find.
Really?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
Again, you do not need a GFCI for the light fixture.
Wrong again Greg.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
The article that the OP cited is from the 2005. It moved to 410.42 in 2008 & 2011. The following is what the 2011 states regarding (The keyword "Permits", does not mean required, it means that you can if you wish to, install a gfci to protect):

Exception No. 3 to 410.44(B) permits a GFCI to provide
protection for personnel where luminaires are supplied by a
circuit that does not have an equipment grounding conduc-
tor. This exception provides added protection similar to that
provided for receptacles supplied from older circuits without
an equipment grounding conductor. However, it does not
allow the installation of a new circuit without an equipment
grounding conductor to supply luminaires.


Really, unless someone is going to be swinging from it, or standing in water while touching, it is your choice, but not something that is required. Personally, you are wasting your money.
Greg, you once again quoted the explanitory text from the handbook. The last sentence under Notice Concerning Code Interpretations in the front of the handbook states;

The commentary and supplementary materials, therefore, solely reflect the personal opinions of the editor or other contributors and do not necessarily represent the official position of the NFPA or its technical committees.

The following text was copied directly from the 2011 NEC Handbook. The text in blue is for explanitory purposes only and is not code!!!!!

410.42 Luminaire(s) with Exposed Conductive
Parts


Exposed metal parts shall be connected to an equipment grounding conductor or insulated from the equipment grounding conductor and other conducting surfaces or be inaccessible to unqualified personnel. Lamp tie wires, mounting screws, clips, and decorative bands on glass spaced at least 38 mm (1 12 in.) from lamp terminals shall not be required to be grounded.



410.44 Methods of Grounding


Luminaires and equipment shall be mechanically connected to an equipment grounding conductor as specified in 250.118 and sized in accordance with 250.122.

Exception No. 1: Luminaires made of insulating material that is directly wired or attached to outlets supplied by a wiring method that does not provide a ready means for grounding attachment to an equipment grounding conductor shall be made of insulating material and shall have no exposed conductive parts.
Exception No. 2: Replacement luminaires shall be permitted to connect an equipment grounding conductor from the outlet in compliance with 250.130(C). The luminaire shall then comply with 410.42.





The rules for grounding of luminaires were reorganized in the 2011 Code. The requirement formerly in 410.46 was relocated to become the main rule in 410.44. The former 410.42(B) became Exception No. 2 to 410.44. Exception No. 2 provides a method by which a luminaire with exposed conductive parts can be installed at an outlet where the wiring method is not an equipment grounding conductor per 250.118 or does not provide an equipment grounding conductor.

In older installations where luminaires are replaced, the requirement to ground exposed metal parts of the luminaire is not negated simply because no means of grounding is provided by the existing wiring system. The means allowed by the exception is the same as is permitted for receptacles installed at outlets where no grounding means exists.

A single grounding conductor can be run independently of the circuit conductors, from the outlet to a point on the wiring system where an effective grounding connection can be made. The acceptable termination points for this separate grounding conductor are specified by 250.130(C).






Exception No. 3: Where no equipment grounding conductor exists at the outlet, replacement luminaires that are GFCI protected shall not be required to be connected to an equipment grounding conductor.



Exception No. 3 to 410.44(B) permits a GFCI to provide protection for personnel where luminaires are supplied by a circuit that does not have an equipment grounding conductor. This exception provides added protection similar to that provided for receptacles supplied from older circuits without

an equipment grounding conductor. However, it does not allow the installation of a new circuit without an equipment grounding conductor to supply luminaires.






Stickboy is once again correct. Also, 410.44(B) does not exist.
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Last edited by electures; 09-13-2012 at 08:20 PM.
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Old 09-13-2012, 08:22 PM   #30
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Replacing Light Fixture with No Ground Wire in Home


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OK, thanks...that's very helpful.
Please disregard Gregs post as it is completely wrong. STickboy is absolutely correct.

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