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Replacing existing recessed soffit lights

17K views 35 replies 8 participants last post by  miamicuse 
#1 · (Edited)
I need some advice on how best to do this.

I have existing soffit lights around the perimeter of the property, 38 of them. All of soffit panels are T1-11 2" OC - which they don't even make anymore, 4" and 8" I have seen, no more 2".





Anyways, these lights were originally installed in 1972. I had a few of them died. When I removed the can, some of the guts were corroded, and the wiring frayed.

The lights were made by Underwriters Laboratory, Inc. model E-15522, which they no longer made. I have a feeling most of these lights are living on borrowed time and I need to have them replaced.

Obviously I do not wish to pull down all the soffit panel and put on new ones. Some of these panels are angled and up high. So I am looking for ideas on how to replace them.

Here are the constraints.

#1, The way it's wired, is by hard pipe, EMT conduits. They have three circuits supplying power to these lights, running through the same conduits, one circuit powers light 1, 4, 7, 11...the next circuit powers lights 2, 5, 8, 12... and a third circuit powers corner lights and main landing lights. There is a 4"x4" junction box within a few inches of each light in the attic, and the pipes jumps from JB to JB to JB. If I remove a can the wire from the can to the adjacent JB is an armored cable.

#2, those are new construction lights, so when I pulled down one can, there is a rectangular metal frame around the hole. The hole is 6-3/4" in diameter. If I can find remodel lights that work, I might have to mark the locations of the clips and use a plier to flatten the circular "fins" of the existing metal frames.

Seems to me the easiest way is to find a remodel can that requires a 6-3/4" knock out hole, and run new wires from each nearby JB to the remodel JB. So far I am unable to identify one. Too small a hole, the clips won't catch the soffit. Too big a hole, I can't cut a bigger hole without running into the new construction metal frame.

The existing wires are #12 solid. They look fine. I can reach these JB by sticking my hand through these corresponding holes. However, from examining three of these boxes, the wires in the boxes are quite short, like 3" to 4" from where the conduits meet the box. So it looks like if I rewire a new light, I would have to do it at the box with one hand reaching through the knockout hole, practically blind. Is this possible? If not I would have to use new wires, long enough to pull outside of the hole so I can make the connection outside.

Most important question are there recessed lights that fits a 6-3/4" knock out hole?
 
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#2 ·
Those look like typical 6" cans. Halo H7 type cans.

You should be able to replace just the can and leave the frame-in kit in the soffit. You would have to buy the whole can however, but at around $7/ea that is not the end of the world.

And get rid of those silly glass trims and get you some open trims and flood lamps. You'll be MUCH happier with the light they give.
 
#17 ·
IMO this is your best option, just take the inner can down, probably held in with 3 small screws, disconnect the flex from the JB, take it to a local electrical wholesale supply, and see if they can get something in to replace it with.

If they can't they may be able to send you in the right direction.

EDIT: remodel cans may cost more than new construction housings
 
#3 ·
Speedy Petey those are Underwriters Laboratory, Inc. model E-15522 cans, discontinued for a long time now. The knock out hole diameter is 6-3/4", while the Halo H7 series hole diameter is 6-1/4". So a halo remodel can definitely can fit through, but in looking at the clips I am not sure a 1/2" extra diameter to me seem like it would to too much "play"?

I wish I could use a different trim, down here this being outside, they won't allow it, at least my inspector didn't.
 
#5 ·
Then you should ask your inspector to show you the local code why it is not allowed.

The recessed can for outside purpose is not a issue at all and I have done this often in both Wisconsin and in France.

The under the soffet is a damp location so you can use the coventail open trims avce PAR 30 ou 38 verison they will throw good amout of light per wattage.

You can peel off the T-11 sliding as long you can find the nail holes and take your time to remove them and you can save them and use the new housing and mount the same way as the old one is there.

Otherwise do as Pete suggest that will be next step.

Merci,
Marc
 
#4 ·
Well, Underwriters Laboratory, Inc. is not the manufacturer. They are the testing lab that performs product safety testing and certification.

What I mean is you can remove the can itself and replace it with the can from an H7T or H7ICT. Only problem is you would void the UL cert for both lights. IMO it is a safe replacement though. The H7 cans have the thermal cut-out inside the can itself so you would retain that mandatory safety feature.
 
#14 ·
Well, Underwriters Laboratory, Inc. is not the manufacturer. They are the testing lab that performs product safety testing and certification.
I looked again on the inside of one of the cans and this is what's said.

AT Lite Lighting Equipment
E-15522
Underwriters Laboratory, Inc.

I noticed "AT Lite" is now Cooper Industries but they do emergency exit lights. So may be 40 years ago they were doing down lights?
 
#8 ·
I can't use these trims.

The fundamental problem is the old cans and it's parts. They are rusting out, the socket that you screw the light bulbs into, are now as delicate as chalk. The conductors from the top of the can to the nearby JB have nylon or cloth jackets, they are literally turning to dust. One time I pull down a can to examine it the wiring without any strain just snapped in two. I guess 40 years in a long time for these cans.

So getting new trims to screw into a crumbing socket inside partially rusted cans will not solve the problem.
 
#10 ·
It will be secured as long the oringal housing bracket is still good shape you will need longer sheet metal screws and use the shorty nutdriver ( this will work the best ) and screw it down a little until you get in about dead centre that will be good place ( you may want to build some kind of washer or spacer between the old housing frame and new can itself.)

So that one option you can do that.

Merci,
Marc
 
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#11 ·
So the job isn't just about replacing the lights, it's also about replacing the soffit board. Or at the very least taking it down to remove the old boxes. Which could either be replaced with new boxes or you could use old work replacement assemblies. Which would presumably be easier to replace the next time the job is needed.
 
#15 ·
Well, look at it this way, they're all the way up there and it's not easy to do. So you make the job harder by trying to do it through the holes and hope to hack together something.

Or you punt, take down the wood, have easy access to everything and do the job right. Sometimes what seems hard is a lot easier in both the short and long run.
 
#16 ·
That would be my last resort to take down the soffit panels.

Most of these are not straight sheets, with custom angles and tapers.

The soffit panels were nailed up to the overhanged bottom chords of trusses with finished nails, spaced like 2" or 3" apart. It would be really tricky to pry them off without damaging the edges of the sheets. If I mess one up there is no new panel I can buy. I checked all local lumber yards and was told I can't even special order it anymore.

If I could find a remodel can that fits that hole size and the clips secures the panel, I do not see where I am using anything that's not used for their intended purpose. Where is the hacking you speak of?

As to trying to wire through one hand in that hole, that wasn't really a serious question. I have already decided that I would rewire these lights completely. I don't like one switch controlling every third light configuration. I probably would rewire it so that each switch controls one "section", like front, back, sides etc...and if I do that, I would have to feed new wires anyways and I would feed long enough to be able to wire outside of the hole.
 
#18 ·
You have a couple options...

1) Remove the can from its housing. Usually there is 3 screws that hold the can in. Remove those screws and remove the whip from the junction box. Then purchase new, rough cans and install the new can.

2) If you can find a remodel can that is at least as big as the existing hole, you could use that. If its bigger, you could cut out the soffet. You would have to be VERY close to the exact diameter of the existing cans as they only give you about 1/4"-1/2" to play with.

3) Take down soffet material and install new rough cans.

Those are really your only options. This isn't going to be easy any way you go about it. Even if you get lucky and are able to use suggestion #1 or #2, you still have to get the new wires in their appropriate boxes and make the connections, which can be a real PITA on its own.
 
#20 ·
You have a couple options...

1) Remove the can from its housing. Usually there is 3 screws that hold the can in. Remove those screws and remove the whip from the junction box. Then purchase new, rough cans and install the new can.
The existing cans are held by three short tabs sticking out from the new construction metal frame. No screws, it's held there just by friction.

You have a couple options...
2) If you can find a remodel can that is at least as big as the existing hole, you could use that. If its bigger, you could cut out the soffet. You would have to be VERY close to the exact diameter of the existing cans as they only give you about 1/4"-1/2" to play with.
These lights were made by ATLITE 40 years ago and no longer available. The knock out hole size is 6-3/4". I measured Halo H7 series and it's 6-1/4". If I go one size higher I would need to create a larger hole. Not sure how to drill a larger hole, do I stick a piece of wood in and secure across the middle of the existing hole, then use a circular cutter? I have one of these.



However, what to do when I run into the underside of the metal frame still left up there? Can I cut through that as well?

You have a couple options...
3) Take down soffet material and install new rough cans.

Those are really your only options. This isn't going to be easy any way you go about it. Even if you get lucky and are able to use suggestion #1 or #2, you still have to get the new wires in their appropriate boxes and make the connections, which can be a real PITA on its own.
I am going to run new wires because I don't like how the current configurations, they had one circuit on every third light. I want to rewire it differently, so will need to feed new wires regardless, with all conduits I don't see it being a big deal, I will make sure I feed the wire long enough to reach outside the hole so I can make all the connections with two hands.
 
#24 ·
#25 ·
Miamicuse.,

I know you mention 37 cans if I read it right and with the NEC code we will sized the circuit by max wattage of the luminaire itself not the acutal bulb itself so therefore you did have 3 circuits for that.

I know you may go with LED route to reduce the amout of load on the circuit but again I will remind you that we still have to go with the luminarie max wattage rating.
( note: if you use the conversion kit that will not count at all due someone will revert back to indentscent bulb again so that one reason why I never count the conversion kit wattage itself.)

And whatever you do with extsting wiring be aware do NOT cross the netural connection due you can overload without warning so watch out on that part.

Do you have local wood working shop like cabient shop or something like that in your area if so try to talk to the wood working shop to see if they can make narrow T-11's panel for you otherwise I would ran that on table saw with dado blade and run mulit cuts on them.

Take a photo of one of the luminaires sans glass lens so we can get better idea how to deal with it if possible.

Merci,
Marc
 
#26 ·
If you've got that many lights to replace then it'd certainly be worth considering a hole saw sized to whatever hole you need. And depending on the increase in size you probably be best served using a jig to guide the hole saw over the existing one. It usually doesn't take more than a few spins to get a hole saw going, so you wouldn't 'have to' keep the jig on for the entire time. This would likely mean you'd have at least one screw hole to deal with later, not unless your new lights have a large enough lip to cover it.

I went with the 'pull down the board' approach also because I wonder how you're going to get up into the hole and deal with changing the wiring. It'd be pretty tight trying to do good electrical work through that small of a hole. That and there being an existing can in your way.

But, pictures showing more of the existing fixture behind the lens assembly would certainly help.
 
#28 ·
wkearney99, yes I have a pretty good idea on how the wiring is ran. Basically, they used 1/2" conduits which jump from JB to JB to JB. They are all standard 4" square box with a blank cover on, mounted vertically to the top of the joists. The conduits are higher, it always run from the top side down to the box, so they secured the conduits to the bottom of the sloping rafters. So if you look at two JBs from the side, the conduits are like a fat, inverted "U" shape.

There will be no existing can in the way, I would have pulled the old can off, leaving me the hole and access to the nearby JB. Of course, I can't reach in with both hands, and the wires in the existing box are typically not long enough to reach outside of the hole for me to easily wire them. However, like I mentioned earlier, the wiring was not done to my liking anyways, because they used one circuit for lights 1, 4, 7... another for lights 2, 5, 8 and so forth. If I have to take each down and fiddle with opening and closing each box, I might as well change all the wires so that the circuits (and switches) control different zones of the perimeter. If I do that I will make sure I feed extra wire to reach outside of the holes so I can do it with both hands.

I am going there now to take a few pictures.
 
#29 ·
I get a bad skeptical feeling about 1/2" conduit with limited access and the notion of just pulling new wire through it. There's, what, five wires in there now?

I'm not trying to be all doom-and-gloom here, just sharing a note of caution about where this job might end up going. Being prepared for the worst often helps decide earlier when you've reach the tipping point for doing the job differently.

I'm sure plenty of folks here could chime in with "I wish I'd known" comments about when they really could have saved an awful lot of time approaching it differently.

Think about the hassle of getting the covers off/on the junction boxes. Have plenty of spare screws for WHEN (not if) they drop off and into the void of the soffit. Or the covers themselves! And screwdrivers and pliers. A good tool belt is a must for a job like this. That and Werner's newer style of ladders with accessories are great. This one came in VERY handy: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003Z6QBQS


And stock up on a bigger bottle of ibuprofen because it's murder on the calves, arms and back reaching above your head all day to deal with wiring. This having just run all the low voltage lines in our new house.
 
#30 ·
Yeah I know it would be a neck breaking task. However, I have taken down one panel previously due to other reasons and it was a huge pain to cut a custom piece and raise it back in place. It literally took two of us two ladder a good 6 hours to remove one piece and cut a replacement trapezoidal sloped section, put it back up, prime and paint it. I think I can do 4-5 lights in that time.

That was the only piece of 2"OC T1-11 left in the garage.
 
#31 ·
OK a bit of update with some pictures. Here is one section on the interior atrium, same wiring method.

See how the conduits from the last and the next comes to the light's junction box?







Back then, the JB didn't come on the fixture, you have to iinstall your own JB, and connect the "whip" to it.

That is why I was thinking of remodel can, because I need to run the wiring from the JB to the remodel can's JB. That way, I can use the existing whip (just the armored jacket) because it's already attached to the JB right now, and I don't need to unthread the connector from the JB and reconnect with one hand. All I need to do is to pull the whip out of the hole, pull out old wires, and insert new wires.

Right now there are 4 conductors in these 1/2" conduct. 3 hot and 1 neutral. There is no green wire as it's all metal conduits and boxes.
 
#35 ·
OK a bit of update with some pictures.
Back then, the JB didn't come on the fixture, you have to iinstall your own JB, and connect the "whip" to it.

That is why I was thinking of remodel can, because I need to run the wiring from the JB to the remodel can's JB. That way, I can use the existing whip (just the armored jacket) because it's already attached to the JB right now, and I don't need to unthread the connector from the JB and reconnect with one hand. All I need to do is to pull the whip out of the hole, pull out old wires, and insert new wires.

Right now there are 4 conductors in these 1/2" conduct. 3 hot and 1 neutral. There is no green wire as it's all metal conduits and boxes.
Ugh, that's still going to be tight quarters to get work done. I'm guessing the rest of the soffits aren't as accessible as this one?

I won't get into discussing what code would have to say about re-using a greenfield (BX) jacket. But it's been my experience that the ends of the armor metal are often not trimmed as carefully as you'd like. Little sharp ends tend to nick the insulation. Trying to push/pull new wire through them is not something I'd plan on being a huge success.

Hopefully the neutral is not the same gauge as the hot leads? Or that the hot leads are over-sized for the load put on them? You can't expect three circuits to feed back on one neutral if it's not large enough for the load. Granted, new CFLs or LEDs would draw less. But as the frenchelec pointed out code isn't about the actual load.

I just don't see it being realistic trying to do all that work through just the existing can's hole.

BTW, thanks for the pix.
 
#32 ·
Also, I think I have a better idea what you guys were talking about when you said use screws to attach a H7 new construction can to the existing framework.

I pulled down the trim and saw this.



See the three tabs that are holding the can in place. That's why I said the cans are kept in place by friction.



However, I noticed the little tabs have a hole in the middle. I am guessing these are screw holes to secure the cans? For some reason whoever installed them never put one single screw in...so it's just sitting up there by friction. I can use screws to secure a smaller can if that can has the "slots" in the same place? Correct?

By the way, I know this soffit is NOT T-11 2" OC but this is in the interior atrium so they apparently used the ugly bead boards for this.
 
#33 ·
Yep, sounds about right on the panel hassles. Not sure I'd be quite so optimistic about the lights given the desire to change the wiring in the conduits. Just the fixtures, sure. But wrestling with the wires through the conduits and the existing boxes will eat up time, for sure.
 
#34 ·
It may be easier to take the whip out of the box, feed the wire through, and then reinstall the whip between the new fixture and the existing box. Pushing wire through greenfield can be a PITA sometimes, especially when there's not a good nose on the wire.
 
#36 ·
The wires are #12 solid copper wires. I will need to map out which lights are on that single neutral. Yes some of these are sharing the same neutral wire. Not all 38 lights, as I have the perimeter recessed lights, interior courtyard recessed lights, landing lights, as well as soffit outlets (for Christmas lights which we never used) under different circuits but I am sure a bunch of these have a shared neutral which could be a problem. Thanks.
 
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