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Old 11-19-2009, 03:41 PM   #1
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Removing wall with wires in it


Greetings;

My son-in-law owns a 35 year old house. Around 15 years ago it was hit by lightning and had some minor damage. As part of the restoration the electrical system was upgraded to 200Amp service so the main breaker panel was replaced. Looking in the panel there are several wires that were too short for the new panel, so who ever installed the thing extended quite a few wires with wire nuts inside the panel. (My son-in-law bought the house 3 years ago)...

Now - my question - they are adding a 12x30 ft extension to the back of the house and will be removing the back wall. The power panel is in the basement and there are at least 8 to 10 wires running up through that wall to the attic and the rest of the house. I'm going to have to relocate the wires running through that wall, and thus will need to install a junction box in the attic and reroute new wires upto that junction box to tie into the original wires.

What do I need to know to do that? (In Kentucky a homeowner is permitted to do his own electrical work as long as it passes inspection - I'll be helping my son-in-law do this work). I've wired two homes that I've built myself so I'm somewhat knowledgable, but I've never had to relocate 35 year old wiring like this. Any suggestions will be much appreciated.

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Old 11-19-2009, 04:36 PM   #2
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Removing wall with wires in it


If the current install is correct and you are just rerouting the it would pretty much be just using the same wire size, support the wires appropriately, don't mix up the wires, keep the junction boxes accessible and ground the new junction boxes.

A short sitdown with the inspector before you start would be worthwhile if he's game.

Probably goes without saying but make sure the removed exterior wall is replaced with an appropriate beam and supports.

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Old 11-20-2009, 08:31 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jogr View Post
If the current install is correct and you are just rerouting the it would pretty much be just using the same wire size, support the wires appropriately, don't mix up the wires, keep the junction boxes accessible and ground the new junction boxes.

A short sitdown with the inspector before you start would be worthwhile if he's game.

Probably goes without saying but make sure the removed exterior wall is replaced with an appropriate beam and supports.
If I have multiple romex cables going in/out of the box, do I tie all the grounds together? Can the junction box include a strip to tie the grounds to, or does each in/out ground have to remain unique? Assuming the box is large enough, any problem running them all in the same box?
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Old 11-20-2009, 10:27 AM   #4
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Removing wall with wires in it


i'd also add that the junction box(es) MUST be accessible, not buried in the wall or whatever.

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Old 11-20-2009, 05:38 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by jboswald View Post
If I have multiple romex cables going in/out of the box, do I tie all the grounds together? Can the junction box include a strip to tie the grounds to, or does each in/out ground have to remain unique? Assuming the box is large enough, any problem running them all in the same box?
You got me on that one. My knee jerk reaction is that all the grounds would be tied together in the box with a pigtail to the box as that is what I've always seen. But that could be a massive wad if you have 8 ground wires coming in and 8 leaving. I don't know if they make a wire nut that could handle that.

Maybe a pro will set us straight on here. If not, that would be a question for your inspector. You'll also want to be figure out the correct size box for so many wires.
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Old 11-21-2009, 03:09 PM   #6
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All grounds go together, take one to the ground screw and make a joint out of the rest. You can get big maretts, I call them big blues I beleive they are #35. I have put 6 or 7 #10 in one of them so you should be good to go.
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Old 11-22-2009, 03:45 AM   #7
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Removing wall with wires in it


I am on the same page as Darren the ground can be tied together without any issue however the netural you CAN NOT intermixed at all it must be the same.

Sure you can find big wirenuts they are pretty common in big box store it a megableu wirenut and with that size I can able put two 16mm˛(#6's) in one wirenuts without any issue

For the ground conductors you can have many as 8 under one large bleu wirenut but make sure you fold it nice before you do other conductor and expect to be stiff to fold with that many ground conductors.

Oh yeah make sure you use 2 1/8 deep 4x4 junction box for this useage otherwise you will run into overcrowding issue.

Merci.
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Old 11-22-2009, 12:35 PM   #8
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i think these guys have it just about covered, however i would note that you should not have wire nuts in your electrical panel, so theres my 2 cents on this matter
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Old 11-22-2009, 12:40 PM   #9
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Wire nuts are allowed in the panel
I don't have any in my panel & prefer not to
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Old 11-28-2009, 12:22 PM   #10
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i stand corrected, for some reason i didnt think that was permitted, sorry!

edit: heres where i was coming from with that

312.8 Enclosures for Switches or Overcurrent Devices.
Enclosures for switches or overcurrent devices shall not be used as junction boxes, auxiliary gutters, or raceways for conductors feeding through or tapping off to other switches or overcurrent devices, unless adequate space for this purpose is provided. The conductors shall not fill the wiring space at any cross section to more than 40 percent of the cross-sectional area of the space, and the conductors, splices, and taps shall not fill the wiring space at any cross section to more than 75 percent of the cross-sectional area of that space.


But I see where I misread this portion , oops

Last edited by Scott3229; 11-28-2009 at 12:27 PM.
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Old 11-29-2009, 03:52 PM   #11
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Thanks for the feedback! After tearing off the outside sheathing I found that I had 21 wires in three different cavities in the wall. I purchased a small 100 amp load panel (8.5" x 12" x 3.5") and removed the insides of the panel, leaving just the grounding bar and am using it as a junction box. I mounted the box in a side wall near the one being removed, and one by one relocated the wires from the wall that is being removed over to the load center junction box, where I spliced it to a new wire that runs back to the original breaker in the original load panel. I tied all the grounds together using the grounding bar that I left in the load panel (vs. junction box).

As a side benefit I got to eliminate the patched wire-nutted wires in the main load panel.

Thanks for your help.
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Old 11-29-2009, 03:55 PM   #12
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Forgot to mention that I used a 15 x 15 plastic access panel to cover up the junction box I mounted in the wall.

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