Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Electrical

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 07-13-2013, 08:38 AM   #16
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 289
Rewards Points: 10
Share |
Default

relocating washer and dryer, bringing up to code cheaply?


I have oodles of respect for the pros on this site, but the OP did come here asking if what he wanted to do was a bad idea and then simply wanted to know WHY it was a bad idea. Now wanting to know why might just be to justify using the 10/2 anyway with the idea that the "code is overkill" or he may have wanted to know simply for the sake of knowing. I decided early on to trust that there is immeasurable wisdom behind the code. Just look at the list of panel members, and at least some of them post on these forums. I have read enough of the code to understand the gist of the "parallel rules" advice to know there are allowances for multiple cables but those allowances don't apply here. That was good enough for me and I know that if I go study the code and research I will come to understand the reasoning. I could also study switchgear but I am more than certain i will never install it in my home just as I would make a run to the big box on the corner to pick up a coil of 10/3 and be done with it.

dgfit is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to dgfit For This Useful Post:
Kyle_in_rure (07-13-2013)
Old 07-13-2013, 08:40 AM   #17
Licensed Electrical Cont.
 
Speedy Petey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NY State
Posts: 6,847
Rewards Points: 54
Default

relocating washer and dryer, bringing up to code cheaply?


Quote:
Originally Posted by reverendalc View Post
I certainly understand that code requires 10/3 for the circuit. I also believe that 10/3 is a superior circuit plan. thirdly, I know that 10/2 works just fine and was standard for nearly thirty years?
Quote:
Originally Posted by reverendalc View Post
i'm entirely confident with the 10/2 setup
10/3 is NOT "superior". It is REQUIRED!
10/2 will work indefinitely, but it is NOT right and NOT safe.

Think what you want, and do what you want (we know you will anyway). But just know for a FACT that 10/2 was NEVER correct, complaint or safe for an electric dryer circuit. PERIOD.




Quote:
Originally Posted by reverendalc View Post
i'm fixing to.....
Do people actually say this in the real world? I thought it was only something you heard on TV or in the movies.
__________________
Sometimes I feel like if I answer any more questions it is like someone trying to climb over a fence to jump off a bridge and me giving them a boost.
Answers based on the 2008 & 2011 NEC.
Speedy Petey is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2013, 08:45 AM   #18
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 289
Rewards Points: 10
Default

relocating washer and dryer, bringing up to code cheaply?


I'm fixing to get back to my bathroom demo . I do use that term but only to inflect humor
dgfit is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to dgfit For This Useful Post:
Speedy Petey (07-13-2013)
Old 07-13-2013, 08:57 AM   #19
Licensed electrician
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Maryland
Posts: 7,598
Rewards Points: 30
Default

relocating washer and dryer, bringing up to code cheaply?


It baffles me why someone would try to continue to use something that was never correct just because it works. So sad, especially when it could affect someones life.
__________________
Answers based on the National Electrical Code. Local amendments may apply. Check with your local building officials.
Jim Port is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Jim Port For This Useful Post:
frenchelectrican (07-13-2013), Speedy Petey (07-13-2013), stickboy1375 (07-13-2013)
Old 07-13-2013, 09:00 AM   #20
Licensed Electrical Cont.
 
Speedy Petey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NY State
Posts: 6,847
Rewards Points: 54
Default

relocating washer and dryer, bringing up to code cheaply?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
It baffles me why someone would try to continue to use something that was never correct just because it works. So sad, especially when it could affect someones life.
I equate it to driving 120mph on a crowded highway.
Sure, you could go miles and miles and miles without a mishap, but when something does go wrong...it's big.
__________________
Sometimes I feel like if I answer any more questions it is like someone trying to climb over a fence to jump off a bridge and me giving them a boost.
Answers based on the 2008 & 2011 NEC.
Speedy Petey is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2013, 11:41 AM   #21
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 6
Rewards Points: 0
Default

relocating washer and dryer, bringing up to code cheaply?


wow what a great variety of digressions here. i'd like to thank those that actually answered my question with reason, rather than blind adherence to code. if I was hell bent on using 10/2, I wouldn't have opened this topic. I would've just done it.

I wanted some perspective on how and why. some people treat code like religion, and to a degree with some ignorance.

also, yes, I used the term "fixing to..." ironically. i'm not larry the cable guy.

my original post indicated that I wanted to do a 4wire circuit.

I feel like some of you take PERSONAL offense that one may consider breaching the NEC. it's not an affront to you as a person, nor your career. it's a result of lack of knowledge, materials, or means, and not pure disdain for you, the NEC, and those who compiled it. to act as if you've never disobeyed or disregarded a rule in your life is ludicrous. now you may adhere to all the rules in your profession, but not in all professions. i'm no licensed electrician, so this is a gray area for me.

i'm not looking for somebody to give me the go-ahead to be lazy. i'm not looking for code-whores to reprimand me.

on a side note, I've never known anybody to have a failed 10/2 dryer circuit. never even heard of it directly happening to somebody I know or somebody they know. if it' so unsafe, should I rush to my mother's house and rewire it? my father's house too? perhaps quit my job and travel the land saving lives from potential 10/2 dryer circuit faults?

perhaps i'm among the few who take it with a grain of salt.

to summarize: it certainly seems that all in all code compliance outweighs the ease of using what I have. thanks to those that chimed in with facts and reason. i'm sorry if I've perturbed anybody with my abrasive dialogue.
reverendalc is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to reverendalc For This Useful Post:
SquishyBall (07-15-2013), sublime2 (07-13-2013)
Old 07-13-2013, 12:03 PM   #22
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 289
Rewards Points: 10
Default

relocating washer and dryer, bringing up to code cheaply?


I think I learned from a post here or ET that dryer runs were connected directly to the service back in the day and therefore was no distinction between ground and neutral. That was grandfathered into the code, but is now illegal. Speedy was that your post?
dgfit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2013, 02:48 PM   #23
Licensed Electrical Cont.
 
Speedy Petey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NY State
Posts: 6,847
Rewards Points: 54
Default

relocating washer and dryer, bringing up to code cheaply?


Quote:
Originally Posted by dgfit View Post
I think I learned from a post here or ET that dryer runs were connected directly to the service back in the day and therefore was no distinction between ground and neutral. That was grandfathered into the code, but is now illegal. Speedy was that your post?
This is not at all true.
An electric dryer circuit ALWAYS required an insulated NEUTRAL, with the ONLY exception being the use of SEU cable. The separate grounding conductor was allowed to be omitted.
Older 3-wire dryer circuits had a neutral, but no grounding conductor. The neutral also served as the ground. This is why the case/frame of the dryer, which was still required to be grounded, was bonded to the circuit neutral.

The neutral is a current carrying conductor. In the event of an open neutral, or a compromise in the integrity of the neutral, the current it is carrying will still seek a path back to it's source. So with a bonded case, and a bare grounding conductor carry current, anything in that grounding circuit is susceptible to try and carry current, and in the end possibly become live with voltage.
THIS is why it is unsafe to use a bare grounding conductor as a neutral.
__________________
Sometimes I feel like if I answer any more questions it is like someone trying to climb over a fence to jump off a bridge and me giving them a boost.
Answers based on the 2008 & 2011 NEC.
Speedy Petey is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Speedy Petey For This Useful Post:
beenthere (07-13-2013), dgfit (07-13-2013), frenchelectrican (07-13-2013), Kyle_in_rure (07-13-2013), stickboy1375 (07-13-2013)
Old 07-13-2013, 02:50 PM   #24
Licensed Electrical Cont.
 
Speedy Petey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NY State
Posts: 6,847
Rewards Points: 54
Default

relocating washer and dryer, bringing up to code cheaply?


Oh, and I take the asinine comment "code whore" as a compliment.
__________________
Sometimes I feel like if I answer any more questions it is like someone trying to climb over a fence to jump off a bridge and me giving them a boost.
Answers based on the 2008 & 2011 NEC.
Speedy Petey is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Speedy Petey For This Useful Post:
beenthere (07-13-2013), dgfit (07-13-2013), k_buz (07-13-2013), mm11 (07-13-2013), stickboy1375 (07-13-2013)
Old 07-13-2013, 03:01 PM   #25
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 289
Rewards Points: 10
Default

relocating washer and dryer, bringing up to code cheaply?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedy Petey
This is not at all true.
An electric dryer circuit ALWAYS required an insulated NEUTRAL, with the ONLY exception being the use of SEU cable. The separate grounding conductor was allowed to be omitted.
Older 3-wire dryer circuits had a neutral, but no grounding conductor. The neutral also served as the ground. This is why the case/frame of the dryer, which was still required to be grounded, was bonded to the circuit neutral.

The neutral is a current carrying conductor. In the event of an open neutral, or a compromise in the integrity of the neutral, the current it is carrying will still seek a path back to it's source. So with a bonded case, and a bare grounding conductor carry current, anything in that grounding circuit is susceptible to try and carry current, and in the end possibly become live with voltage.
THIS is why it is unsafe to use a bare grounding conductor as a neutral.
Thanks - I will find the post I was thinking of see where I went wrong in my thinking.
dgfit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2013, 04:52 PM   #26
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: SE Pa.
Posts: 118
Rewards Points: 0
Default

relocating washer and dryer, bringing up to code cheaply?


Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchelectrican View Post
...
I know alot of peoples ran 10-2 NM for a quite while when they don't really understand the gravaity of situation when the fault actually occurs and it can do hovac on ground system...

Marc I'm a newbie, are you saying that when the fault occurs it may do a lot of physical damage to the system.
agoodboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2013, 05:47 PM   #27
Electrical Contractor
 
jbfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Newnan GA
Posts: 5,798
Rewards Points: 30
Default

relocating washer and dryer, bringing up to code cheaply?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post





Do people actually say this in the real world? I thought it was only something you heard on TV or in the movies.
Fixen too is a true statement around these parts, just like jonesin, aint and yall!
__________________
Yes I am a Pirate, 200 years too late. "Jimmy Buffett"
jbfan is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to jbfan For This Useful Post:
Speedy Petey (07-13-2013), stickboy1375 (07-13-2013)
Old 07-13-2013, 06:31 PM   #28
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 289
Rewards Points: 10
Default

relocating washer and dryer, bringing up to code cheaply?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
This is not at all true.
An electric dryer circuit ALWAYS required an insulated NEUTRAL, with the ONLY exception being the use of SEU cable. The separate grounding conductor was allowed to be omitted.
Older 3-wire dryer circuits had a neutral, but no grounding conductor. The neutral also served as the ground. This is why the case/frame of the dryer, which was still required to be grounded, was bonded to the circuit neutral.

The neutral is a current carrying conductor. In the event of an open neutral, or a compromise in the integrity of the neutral, the current it is carrying will still seek a path back to it's source. So with a bonded case, and a bare grounding conductor carry current, anything in that grounding circuit is susceptible to try and carry current, and in the end possibly become live with voltage.
THIS is why it is unsafe to use a bare grounding conductor as a neutral.
This was the post I was thinking of on ElectricianTalk.

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/dr...4-prong-38228/

This was the post in particular from macmikeman

"The thing also most forgotten about this is that the three wire cable runs were supposed to be from the service, not from subpanels. So if an existing 3 wire run is present for the dryers in question, and it is run from a subpanel , instead of having been run as required by older codes from the main service panel , the run should be replaced with a 4 conductor cable run, and a 4 conductor cord and outlet be installed to the unit."
dgfit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2013, 06:45 PM   #29
Licensed Electrical Cont.
 
Speedy Petey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NY State
Posts: 6,847
Rewards Points: 54
Default

relocating washer and dryer, bringing up to code cheaply?


Quote:
Originally Posted by dgfit View Post
This was the post I was thinking of on ElectricianTalk.

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/dr...4-prong-38228/

This was the post in particular from macmikeman

"The thing also most forgotten about this is that the three wire cable runs were supposed to be from the service, not from subpanels. So if an existing 3 wire run is present for the dryers in question, and it is run from a subpanel , instead of having been run as required by older codes from the main service panel , the run should be replaced with a 4 conductor cable run, and a 4 conductor cord and outlet be installed to the unit."
OK, fine. But there is no mention about there being no distinction between ground and neutral. It just talks about 3-wire circuits being required to originate from the service panel. This is because of that neutral/ground bond I mentioned which is not allowed after the service panel.
__________________
Sometimes I feel like if I answer any more questions it is like someone trying to climb over a fence to jump off a bridge and me giving them a boost.
Answers based on the 2008 & 2011 NEC.
Speedy Petey is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Speedy Petey For This Useful Post:
dgfit (07-13-2013)
Old 07-13-2013, 07:17 PM   #30
Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 164
Rewards Points: 0
Default

relocating washer and dryer, bringing up to code cheaply?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
It baffles me why someone would try to continue to use something that was never correct just because it works. So sad, especially when it could affect someones life.
People forget that when electrical failures happen it has a greater potential for loss of life . We had three electrocution deaths last year from poorly wired residential boat docks. These docks had been wired for years without issue and then a short occurred and kids were in the water. A ten dollar GFI outlet would have made the difference between life and death for these kids.

__________________
RIP EJT
usair is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to usair For This Useful Post:
Gac66610 (07-13-2013), stickboy1375 (07-13-2013)
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Switch Washer & Dryer Position? Anianna Appliances 5 12-12-2012 10:55 PM
Under counter washer / dryer installation wstt Plumbing 0 04-10-2012 11:00 AM
Washer & Dryer Holiday Fun BRIANisMEisWE Appliances 8 12-24-2011 02:41 AM
washer plugs into dryer, but amps on plugs don't match nmliz Electrical 22 10-19-2011 05:39 PM
Removed basement stairs - put in floor for washer and dryer capslock Flooring 3 10-09-2010 02:15 PM




Top of Page | View New Posts

Copyright © 2003-2014 Escalate Media. All Rights Reserved.