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Refridgerater on GFCI circuit?, Continuing debate

5K views 83 replies 19 participants last post by  Know A Little 
#1 ·
A properly functioning refrigerator should have no issues on a GFI protected circuit. In a commercial setting the refrigerator is required to be GFI protected.

I don't know why some are so concerned with food over a persons life. The food can be replaced.
That is because in a commercial type setting, the floors are usually washed down, or can be wet from spilled fluids (ie grease), or wet from being freshly mopped. Also you are touch metal countertops all day long, and they also tend to have electrical outlets built into that metal pillar or shelf above the counter.

That is the biggest reason why GFCI protection is required in a Commercial setting, on every outlet in the food service & prep areas.
 
#2 ·
So how does this change whether a resi refer is one GFI or not? It doesn't. It reenforces that even a resi refer on a GFI is not such a bad thing. In both settings a trip is possible, and in both settings you'd notice it quite quickly.

I'll reiterate; it's not optimal, but it's not a bad thing either.

I also call BS on the whole "What if it trips while you are on vacation?" line. A) No one leaves a refer full of fresh food when the go on vacation. B) If it's not tripping other times it's not going to trip while you are on vaca.
 
#5 ·
GFCI circuits in a commercial Kitchen have nothing to do with the equipment, it is to stop people from getting shocked, while standing or working on and around wet metal surfaces.

Residential Kitchens are not going to have soaking wet floors, electrical wiring inside metal chases that are easily touched, outlets banged into all day long, cords that are also banged into causing the plugs to be broken loose from the cord, causing a way to be electrocuted or shocked.

The whole argument is why some people do not want a residential freezer or refrigerator on a gfci, because they believe that the gfci is the problem not the equipment. There are plenty of instances that the equipment was the problem, not the circuit.
 
#3 ·
I know the code is changing in the case of garages where 'everything' has to be GFCI...including fridges and freezers...but as of right now, I believe a fridge/freezer is exempt....at least in the 2008 cycle.
Nope. The exception to have a refer or freezer on non-GFI was in the 2005 NEC and removed in the 2008.
 
#12 ·
romex1220 said:
Yes because refers have high inductance motors and will sometimes trip a gfi on start up and what if you're away on vacation. Guess what you'll come home to? A refer should be on its own circuit anyway and not with the kit sabc, if possible
Gfcis don't trip due to power factor of the load. They trip because the current in the hot and neutral do not cancel out in the differential transformer of the GFCI. If the load is highly inductive the currents will still cancel out with no ground fault. Once a ground fault exists the current are no longer equal and the GFCI trips.

Urban myth that inductive loads are problems for GFCIs.
 
#24 ·
Not an Urban Myth. It was because when they first came out, motorized loads or things like refrigerators would trip them, when gfci's first were introduced. Why do you think that dryers and wash machines are still not required to have GFCI breakers on them, same as hvac equipment.

Sooner or later, those four will be required to have GFCI protection.
 
#23 ·
Like most of us still do. Even worse is that if you do not make your kid wear a helmet when skateboarding, bike riding, keep them out of trees or off of the top of boulders, you are a bad parent.

I remember riding down the hill in the woods back behind my house growing up, and try not to hit the trees on either side. We also had a terrace behind my cousins parents house, and would start at the top, ride down to the terrace between their property and the field at the bottom, with one of us either on the handle bars, or between the seat and the handle bars.

Got scratched up, dusted ourselves off, and did it all over again.
 
#26 · (Edited)
Yes. As for the ground wire for lightning strikes, that in itself is a whole lot of misinformation right there. In older Single Phase systems, the ground wire is used as a return path back to the distribution system. You would have a wire from the system at the pole, attached to a rod in the ground, then at the house, you have the same thing. As long as you have the right resistance, you have a good return path back, so that you are able to complete the circuit, so your lights are on at the house. Now if you lost your ground, bad things would happen, such as fires, blown fuses, electrical shocks.

Now the ground wire is used as a safety measure in how today's systems are wired, but still actually serves the same purpose that it did before, in the old Single Phase system.
 
#30 ·
Earthing/Grounding for a house or any structure is almost black magic to some people.....

Here are some good references...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_(electricity)

Equipment earthing conductors provide an electrical connection between non-current-carrying metallic parts of equipment and the earth. The reason for doing this according to the U.S. National Electrical Code (NEC), is to limit the voltage imposed by lightning, line surges, and contact with higher voltage lines. The equipment earthing conductor is usually also used as the equipment bonding conductor (see below).

Equipment bonding conductors provide a low impedance path between non-current-carrying metallic parts of equipment and one of the conductors of that electrical system's source, so that if a part becomes energized for any reason, such as a frayed or damaged conductor, a short circuit will occur and operate a circuit breaker or fuse to disconnect the faulted circuit. Note that the earth itself has no role in this fault-clearing process[3] since current must return to its source, not the earth as is sometimes believed[citation needed] (see Kirchhoff's circuit laws). By bonding (interconnecting) all exposed non-current carrying metal objects together, they should remain near the same potential thus reducing the chance of a shock. This is especially important in bathrooms where one may be in contact with several different metallic systems such as supply and drain pipes and appliance frames. The equipment bonding conductor is usually also used as the equipment earthing conductor (see above).

A grounding electrode conductor connects one leg of an electrical system to one or more earth electrodes. This is called "system grounding" and most systems are required to be grounded. The U.S. NEC and the UK's BS 7671 list systems that are required to be grounded. The grounding electrode conductor is connected to the leg of the electrical system that is the "neutral wire". The grounding electrode conductor is also usually bonded to pipework and structural steel in larger structures. According to the NEC, the purpose of earthing an electrical system is to limit the voltage to earth imposed by lightning events and contact with higher voltage lines, and also to stabilize the voltage to earth during normal operation. In the past, water supply pipes were often used as ground electrodes, but this was banned where plastic pipes are popular. This type of ground applies to radio antennas and to lightning protection systems.

Permanently installed electrical equipment usually also has permanently connected grounding conductors. Portable electrical devices with metal cases may have them connected to earth ground by a pin in the interconnecting plug (see Domestic AC power plugs and sockets). The size of power ground conductors is usually regulated by local or national wiring regulations.
http://www.ecmag.com/section/codes-standards/grounding-electrode-conductors-building

http://ecmweb.com/bonding-amp-grounding/shocking-truth-about-grounding-electrode-conductors

We have been using electricity for over 100 years....and we are still learning how to properly use it....

Consider the Ufer ground.....discovered during WWII....only now being put into mainstream use.
 
#31 ·
gregzoll said:
Not an Urban Myth. It was because when they first came out, motorized loads or things like refrigerators would trip them, when gfci's first were introduced. Why do you think that dryers and wash machines are still not required to have GFCI breakers on them, same as hvac equipment. Sooner or later, those four will be required to have GFCI protection.
Just to be clear it was never due to power factor of the load. The voltage current phase angle is not in play with the differential transformer in the heart of the GFCI. If the currents match, whatever phase angle, they cancel. They don't match a differential current is produced and the circuitry trips the contactor open.

What you are referring to is that earlier GFCIs had trouble with false trips due to noise on the lines. Brush style motors and motors with starter windings and centrifugal switches can send interference that was problematic for older designs. I don't think this has been a problem in the last 15+ years as these designs are very robust now.

Refrigerators mostly trip due to a true ground fault caused by the sealed motor compressor. Breakdown of the insulation leads to current leakage and voila GFCI trips. People get crazy and blame the GFCI, how about the leaky and dangerous refrigerator?

I put a GFCI on my garage fridge that has an audible alarm if it trips. This way if it inadvertently trips I'll hear it. Can't remember the brand but got it on eBay.
 
#38 ·
Washers have required GFI protection within 6 foot of a sink for several years. I have not heard any outcry over this.

UL tightened the allowable leakage current standards so you do not get the tripping like in the past.
 
#42 ·
Made a new thread. So now you guys can continue your debate, without the original thread starter getting notifications for post he probably doesn't want to read.
 
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#51 ·
stickboy1375 said:
And????????????????? it's simply amazing that i've educated myself enough about GFCI's that I use them on my basement freezers and refrigerators and have NEVER had an issue….
Good.

And mom's old deep freeze ran for years on a non GFCI outlet for years and NEVER had an issue....much less shocked any of us.

So why is this thread still alive? So that we can all state our position 10 more times? At this point I don't think any more minds are going to be changed.
 
#55 ·
You have people that don't understand the dangers of faulty equipment, and then you have the people that do, that is the line that this thread brings out….


Why the government or other beings is being brought out is beyond me, it's a safety issue, plain and simple, if you don't think anyone has ever died, use google and do a little research, typical it will never happen to me scenario… GFCI's have never saved a life…. :whistling2: Oh wait, they are just a nuisance tripping device that someone is making money off of….. so sad this thread is even an argument for some….
 
#57 ·
I had a call about a tripping gfci in a garage.
I did tell her it may be the frdige , but I replaced the gfci anyway.

Fridge continued to trip.
She had a repairman out, spent $250 to repair the fridge, and no more tripping.
 
#61 ·
rrolleston said:
What brand GFCI and AFCI?
SD AFCI, Leviton GFCI.

I've been using the AFCI's for about a year and a half now. I've had just about everything plugged in. Miter saw, circular saw, shop vac, etc. 0 trips of the AFCI. But when I hook up the GFCI, the AFCI trips after a min or two. And no load on it.

I'm tempted to break out my scope and have a look at the line side while it's hooked up.

When I get home in a couple of weeks I'll try a different GFCI first. I could just have a bad one out of the box.
 
#66 · (Edited)
Does it make a difference?

That is like asking if seat belts really save lives…. :whistling2:

Found some stats for you though….

More than 30,000 non-fatal shock accidents occur each year. - See more at: http://www.esfi.org/index.cfm/page/Injury-and-Fatality-

Each year, there is an estimated average of 60 electrocutions associated with consumer products. The three most common product categories associated with electrocutions are small appliance, power tool, and lighting equipment. - See more at: http://www.esfi.org/index.cfm/page/Injury-and-Fatality-Statistics/pid/12015#sthash.MSNkHbTF.dpuf
 
#68 ·
Youre absolutely right,from now on common sense should play no part in what people do in their day to day lives.
Im going to go out and replace the first outlet in every circuit in my house with gfci's.
Im also going to install in use covers on all the gfci's i install in my kitchen and bathrooms.
While Im at it Im also going to replace all the other outlets with tamper resistant outlets just in case,because you can never be too safe.
Im also going to install coast gaurd approved life preservers around all the sinks/toilets and tubs/showers because theyve also been proven to save lives.
And I also should install new anti scald tub-shower faucets and grab bars in all my showers/tubs,just incase somebody might decide to drop the soap and step on it.
When I put the caution tape up around my furnace and water heater area do you reccomend the plain old yellow stuff or should I get the red stuff that says danger on it?
Can you reccomend good emergency lighting and exit lighting?The power could possibly go off some time and Id hate to think somebody might trip over their feet walking through the house.
Youve got me thinking now ,I need to go spread the word to all my friends and neighbors that have some how managed to survive all these years not knowing they were just statistics waiting to happen!:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
 
#70 ·
Youre absolutely right,from now on common sense should play no part in what people do in their day to day lives.
Im going to go out and replace the first outlet in every circuit in my house with gfci's.
Im also going to install in use covers on all the gfci's i install in my kitchen and bathrooms.
While Im at it Im also going to replace all the other outlets with tamper resistant outlets just in case,because you can never be too safe.
Im also going to install coast gaurd approved life preservers around all the sinks/toilets and tubs/showers because theyve also been proven to save lives.
And I also should install new anti scald tub-shower faucets and grab bars in all my showers/tubs,just incase somebody might decide to drop the soap and step on it.
When I put the caution tape up around my furnace and water heater area do you reccomend the plain old yellow stuff or should I get the red stuff that says danger on it?
Can you reccomend good emergency lighting and exit lighting?The power could possibly go off some time and Id hate to think somebody might trip over their feet walking through the house.
You've got me thinking now ,I need to go spread the word to all my friends and neighbors that have some how managed to survive all these years not knowing they were just statistics waiting to happen!:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
You're not that bright, are you?
 
#78 ·
GFIC protection is real big in Europe.....

I did a startup a few years ago on a system in Northern Spain....The MCC for our autoclave was rated at 3500A....typical draw out breaker....and it had a GFCI on it....BIG GFCI.....

We had an issue where when we started getting up close to full heating, the GFCI would trip. Nothing like interrupting 600Vac at over 3000 amps.....it's really fun if you have a part in the autoclave that costs half a mil......

This had been installed by a local contractor.....I was frustrated with the constant trips so I asked to look at it....I actually looked at the manual....and it described how the incoming power was supposed to be routed through the donut...so I pulled off the panel where the power came in....and there you have a bundle of about 30 500NM cables right next to the side of this bundle.....and it says right there in the manual that the wires should be centered in that donut....wish I had a pic....that donut was about 2' in diameter....

It took 3 guys and a lot of grunting and pulling and pushing....but they got it centered....

Worked a whole lot better after that.

With that said.....I see potential issues with trying to GFCI some of the industrial equipment. I can see doing it for the common user accessed outlets....say all the outlets in a control room that are NOT part of a production system...

But when you have a piece of production equipment running where the cost of the material is more than the equipment.....well....I don't see GFCI's being very popular if you get unwanted trips.

In that environment...I'm thinking that maybe alarms letting you know of a potential problem might be a better idea....if your smart about it....do active live monitoring to a SCADA system so maint can see trends and see a problem coming before it actually becomes a problem. I'm willing to bet that about half the ground fault problems start gradual....and the other half are sudden....

Side note...the job site I'm at right now for a startup....all corded tools have to be powered from a GFCI. We have the portable boxes that we plug our extension cords into. About the only time we get a trip is when a slab of hot welding slag falls on a cord and eats through the insulation....

Cords don't get repaired....they get cut and thrown away.
 
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