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Old 11-02-2013, 01:49 PM   #76
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Refridgerater on GFCI circuit?, Continuing debate


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Originally Posted by ddawg16 View Post
Well….unless there is a change to the NEC that I'm not aware of….it's NOT required.....as long as it is a dedicated ckt and that outlet is not kitchen counter accessible.
That's correct.


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Originally Posted by ddawg16 View Post
Otherwise, that GFCI outlet behind your fridge would not be very accessible if it tripped….you would have to pull out the fridge to get to it.
No one said you had to use a GFCI, just GFCI protection….

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Old 11-08-2013, 06:39 AM   #77
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Refridgerater on GFCI circuit?, Continuing debate


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And they know this how
,Have you ever been on an actual job site?Anybody can come up with a number to make their reasoning sound good.
How about some real world testing?
I bet I can go up and down the streets in a mile radius around my house and find no more than 1 dozen gfi's installed and no afci's installed.
And yet Id be willing to bet nobody has died from an electrical shock or had a house burn down in the last 20 plus years.
And I dont remember having said anything about people trying to get themselves shocked,I said people learn from their screw ups.
I spent many years on job sites doing electrical and plumbing jobs,I dont remember many people being shocked in situations where a gfi would have made a differance.
I do remember people dropping stuff on themselves/falling off ladders/burning themselves /getting stuff in their eyes............
Its coming to the point where people dont have to use any common sense what so ever in their daily lives around the house or work,its the goverments way of saying dont worry if youre too stupid to take care of yourself we're here to do it for you.


From today's Mike Holt newsletter!

Industrial GFCIs Are Finally Here
Contributed Article
Special to Mike Holt Enterprises Electrical News Source
October, 2013
Everyone is familiar with ground fault circuit interrupters (GFCIs). We see them in our bathrooms and kitchens at home, where they protect us from electric shock by quickly interrupting the circuit as soon as a ground fault is detected. Simple and reliable, this technology is credited with cutting residential electrocutions in half since it was mandated by the NEC in the 70s.
A different story can be told about the workplace. From 1992-2002, there were 3,348 electrocutions on the job. Despite higher voltages in the workplace that increase the danger of shock, only recently has GFCI technology become available for industrial and commercial settings. The first UL Listed GFCI for applications up to 600 V became available last year.
What is an Industrial GFCI?
An industrial GFCI (UL calls it a “special purpose” GFCI) operates like any other, except for some important differences. First, the trip threshold is set at 20 mA, higher than its residential cousin. Second, the GFCI device must monitor the ground wire for open connections, so that if the connection to ground is lost, then the device will open the circuit. Third, an industrial GFCI interrupts higher power, so it must be much larger. It mounts like an electrical panel or inside an existing electrical cabinet.
According to the UL 943 standard, Class A GFCIs (for use on circuits up to 240 V) must trip at 6 mA. Unfortunately these devices cannot be used in industrial facilities, which typically have significant ground leakage currents that would cause nuisance tripping.
In 2000, UL addressed GFCIs for higher voltage applications with a draft standard “Outline of Investigation” called 943 C and added to it in 2009, but no commercially available product could pass its test requirements until recently. UL 943C Class C, Class D, and Class E define the characteristics expected of a GFCI operating up to 600 V.
• Class C – For circuits with no conductor over 300 VAC to ground where reliable equipment grounding or double insulation is provided.
• Class D – For in circuits with one or more conductors over 300 volts to ground, and with specially sized, reliable grounding, to provide a low impedance path so that the voltage across the body during a fault does not exceed 150 volts.
• Class E – For circuits with one or more conductors over 300 volts to ground but with conventional equipment grounding provided for the protected equipment in the system or double insulation. These devices respond rapidly to open the circuit.
Why the 20mA trip threshold?
UL 943C sets the trip threshold of industrial GFCIs at 20 mA — low enough to provide worker shock protection but high enough in most applications to avoid nuisance tripping. Like household GFCIs, their response to ground current follows an inverse-time curve; a current of 20 mA will cause a trip in about 1 s (quickly enough to prevent injury at this current level), and higher currents will cause a trip within 20 ms.
In some cases, the 20 mA trip threshold may still cause nuisance tripping. One option is an equipment ground-fault protection device (EGFPD), which is like a GFCI except it has adjustable trip settings from 6 to 50 mA. Although EGFPDs protect workers against shock, UL lists them in a category for equipment protection rather than for people protection.
Where are industrial GFCIs used?
Wet applications deserve scrutiny, because water can increase the risk of shock by bringing workers into contact with a ground fault. Industrial GFCIs can be applied to submersible pumps, wet saws, and process equipment such as augers and mixers that handle wet material. Review damp or wet work areas, such as those found in food processing facilities, and areas where equipment is subjected to washdown cleaning.
Industrial GFCIs can be mounted on a wheeled cart and used to protect temporary applications, especially outdoors where electrical equipment is exposed to moisture.
Also consider any application wet or dry where workers come into contact with equipment operating at high voltage, such as welding receptacles.
Long overdue
This is a safety technology that has been long overdue. Now that UL Listed industrial GFCIs are available, the adoption of such protection will grow. Industrial GFCIs are not required by the electrical code, but if the history of residential GFCIs are a model, then the code may be updated to require GFCIs in more industrial applications.
More information is available in a white paper from Littelfuse: http://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/Fi...WhitePaper.pdf
Media Contact: Mark Johnson
Goldstein Group Communications
440-914-4700
mjohnson@ggcomm.com
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Old 11-08-2013, 07:26 AM   #78
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Refridgerater on GFCI circuit?, Continuing debate


GFIC protection is real big in Europe.....

I did a startup a few years ago on a system in Northern Spain....The MCC for our autoclave was rated at 3500A....typical draw out breaker....and it had a GFCI on it....BIG GFCI.....

We had an issue where when we started getting up close to full heating, the GFCI would trip. Nothing like interrupting 600Vac at over 3000 amps.....it's really fun if you have a part in the autoclave that costs half a mil......

This had been installed by a local contractor.....I was frustrated with the constant trips so I asked to look at it....I actually looked at the manual....and it described how the incoming power was supposed to be routed through the donut...so I pulled off the panel where the power came in....and there you have a bundle of about 30 500NM cables right next to the side of this bundle.....and it says right there in the manual that the wires should be centered in that donut....wish I had a pic....that donut was about 2' in diameter....

It took 3 guys and a lot of grunting and pulling and pushing....but they got it centered....

Worked a whole lot better after that.

With that said.....I see potential issues with trying to GFCI some of the industrial equipment. I can see doing it for the common user accessed outlets....say all the outlets in a control room that are NOT part of a production system...

But when you have a piece of production equipment running where the cost of the material is more than the equipment.....well....I don't see GFCI's being very popular if you get unwanted trips.

In that environment...I'm thinking that maybe alarms letting you know of a potential problem might be a better idea....if your smart about it....do active live monitoring to a SCADA system so maint can see trends and see a problem coming before it actually becomes a problem. I'm willing to bet that about half the ground fault problems start gradual....and the other half are sudden....

Side note...the job site I'm at right now for a startup....all corded tools have to be powered from a GFCI. We have the portable boxes that we plug our extension cords into. About the only time we get a trip is when a slab of hot welding slag falls on a cord and eats through the insulation....

Cords don't get repaired....they get cut and thrown away.
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Old 11-08-2013, 06:14 PM   #79
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Refridgerater on GFCI circuit?, Continuing debate


Quote:
Originally Posted by ddawg16 View Post
GFIC protection is real big in Europe.....

I did a startup a few years ago on a system in Northern Spain....The MCC for our autoclave was rated at 3500A....typical draw out breaker....and it had a GFCI on it....BIG GFCI.....

We had an issue where when we started getting up close to full heating, the GFCI would trip. Nothing like interrupting 600Vac at over 3000 amps.....it's really fun if you have a part in the autoclave that costs half a mil......

This had been installed by a local contractor.....I was frustrated with the constant trips so I asked to look at it....I actually looked at the manual....and it described how the incoming power was supposed to be routed through the donut...so I pulled off the panel where the power came in....and there you have a bundle of about 30 500NM cables right next to the side of this bundle.....and it says right there in the manual that the wires should be centered in that donut....wish I had a pic....that donut was about 2' in diameter....

It took 3 guys and a lot of grunting and pulling and pushing....but they got it centered....

Worked a whole lot better after that.

With that said.....I see potential issues with trying to GFCI some of the industrial equipment. I can see doing it for the common user accessed outlets....say all the outlets in a control room that are NOT part of a production system...

But when you have a piece of production equipment running where the cost of the material is more than the equipment.....well....I don't see GFCI's being very popular if you get unwanted trips.

In that environment...I'm thinking that maybe alarms letting you know of a potential problem might be a better idea....if your smart about it....do active live monitoring to a SCADA system so maint can see trends and see a problem coming before it actually becomes a problem. I'm willing to bet that about half the ground fault problems start gradual....and the other half are sudden....

Side note...the job site I'm at right now for a startup....all corded tools have to be powered from a GFCI. We have the portable boxes that we plug our extension cords into. About the only time we get a trip is when a slab of hot welding slag falls on a cord and eats through the insulation....

Cords don't get repaired....they get cut and thrown away.
You think half a million for a piece of equipment is expensive? Try a lawsuit from a death that could/should have been prevented, just saying…..
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Old 11-08-2013, 06:44 PM   #80
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Refridgerater on GFCI circuit?, Continuing debate


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Originally Posted by ddawg16 View Post
GFIC protection is real big in Europe.....

I did a startup a few years ago on a system in Northern Spain....The MCC for our autoclave was rated at 3500A....typical draw out breaker....and it had a GFCI on it....BIG GFCI.....

We had an issue where when we started getting up close to full heating, the GFCI would trip. Nothing like interrupting 600Vac at over 3000 amps.....it's really fun if you have a part in the autoclave that costs half a mil......

Worked a whole lot better after that.
ay.
You are discussing GFPE NOT GFCI

Have you read this?

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/ad...lt-issues-483/
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Old 11-08-2013, 06:52 PM   #81
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Refridgerater on GFCI circuit?, Continuing debate


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Originally Posted by Know A Little View Post
You are discussing GFPE NOT GFCI

Have you read this?

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/ad...lt-issues-483/
not correct, check out the mA at which each device trips at….these devices trip at 20 mA, where as GFPE is adjustable from 6-50 mA.

Last edited by stickboy1375; 11-08-2013 at 06:54 PM.
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Old 11-08-2013, 08:45 PM   #82
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Refridgerater on GFCI circuit?, Continuing debate


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not correct, check out the mA at which each device trips at….these devices trip at 20 mA, where as GFPE is adjustable from 6-50 mA.
I am not addressing the industrial GFCI in the earlier post.
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Old 11-08-2013, 08:50 PM   #83
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Refridgerater on GFCI circuit?, Continuing debate


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I am not addressing the industrial GFCI in the earlier post.
Ahhh, i see what you meant now….. after re-reading….
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Old 11-09-2013, 06:18 AM   #84
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Refridgerater on GFCI circuit?, Continuing debate


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Ahhh, i see what you meant now….. after re-reading….
No problem, I THINK (???) that some countries also use what they call a residual system of GFCI on main circuit breakers in residential panels, NOT POSITIVE ON THIS.

The issue with GFCI on large frame circuit breakers is coordination with down stream devices with a CB set at a 100 ma. Take a 20 amp CB it will trip on instantaneous current at 120-200 amps this would take out the main every time. In addition in large distribution systems it is not unusual to have leakage current in the 1-3 amp (and possibly higher) range.


Last edited by Know A Little; 11-09-2013 at 06:23 AM.
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