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Old 10-30-2013, 08:22 AM   #31
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Refridgerater on GFCI circuit?, Continuing debate


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Originally Posted by gregzoll
Not an Urban Myth. It was because when they first came out, motorized loads or things like refrigerators would trip them, when gfci's first were introduced. Why do you think that dryers and wash machines are still not required to have GFCI breakers on them, same as hvac equipment. Sooner or later, those four will be required to have GFCI protection.
Just to be clear it was never due to power factor of the load. The voltage current phase angle is not in play with the differential transformer in the heart of the GFCI. If the currents match, whatever phase angle, they cancel. They don't match a differential current is produced and the circuitry trips the contactor open.

What you are referring to is that earlier GFCIs had trouble with false trips due to noise on the lines. Brush style motors and motors with starter windings and centrifugal switches can send interference that was problematic for older designs. I don't think this has been a problem in the last 15+ years as these designs are very robust now.

Refrigerators mostly trip due to a true ground fault caused by the sealed motor compressor. Breakdown of the insulation leads to current leakage and voila GFCI trips. People get crazy and blame the GFCI, how about the leaky and dangerous refrigerator?

I put a GFCI on my garage fridge that has an audible alarm if it trips. This way if it inadvertently trips I'll hear it. Can't remember the brand but got it on eBay.

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Old 10-30-2013, 09:46 AM   #32
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Refridgerater on GFCI circuit?, Continuing debate


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it's all about lowering the chances of an accidental death, everything evolves as people are more educated in safety… look at how the automobile industry has changed for a better survival rate in a crash.
Ive been collecting model A's since back before it was cool to do,and always where a seat belt when ever its available.(theyve been around since the 50s in some cars)
And have some how managed to survive.
A lot of this stuff is turning us into a society of people too stupid to know whats actually dangerous and whats not,people get used to being constantly protected from everything .
Then when they do get hurt being an idiot the first thing they want to do is call a lawyer and sue somebody.
I guess I just grew up in a differant time with a differant mindset .Back then if something shocked you or burned you, you learned not to do that the next time.
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Old 10-30-2013, 10:32 AM   #33
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Refridgerater on GFCI circuit?, Continuing debate


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A lot of this stuff is turning us into a society of people too stupid to know whats actually dangerous and whats not, people get used to being constantly protected from everything .
Then when they do get hurt being an idiot the first thing they want to do is call a lawyer and sue somebody.

Meatball logic. People don't seek to get shocked. Why wouldn't you use technology to add another layer of safety net if it is inexpensive to do so? Here's something worth thinking about:

Fast Fact:
Since the OSHA standard requiring GFCI use in the construction industry has been passed between 650 and 1,100 lives have been saved.


I doubt those 1,100 families don't think GFCI's are frivolous....
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Old 10-30-2013, 10:44 AM   #34
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Refridgerater on GFCI circuit?, Continuing debate


I don't know which one I hate worse, a fridge on a gfci or those God damned arc fault breakers that trip every friggin time you use a vacuum or whatever.
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Old 10-30-2013, 11:03 AM   #35
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Refridgerater on GFCI circuit?, Continuing debate


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Meatball logic. People don't seek to get shocked. Why wouldn't you use technology to add another layer of safety net if it is inexpensive to do so? Here's something worth thinking about:


Fast Fact:
Since the OSHA standard requiring GFCI use in the construction industry has been passed between 650 and 1,100 lives have been saved.


I doubt those 1,100 families don't think GFCI's are frivolous....
And they know this how
,Have you ever been on an actual job site?Anybody can come up with a number to make their reasoning sound good.
How about some real world testing?
I bet I can go up and down the streets in a mile radius around my house and find no more than 1 dozen gfi's installed and no afci's installed.
And yet Id be willing to bet nobody has died from an electrical shock or had a house burn down in the last 20 plus years.
And I dont remember having said anything about people trying to get themselves shocked,I said people learn from their screw ups.
I spent many years on job sites doing electrical and plumbing jobs,I dont remember many people being shocked in situations where a gfi would have made a differance.
I do remember people dropping stuff on themselves/falling off ladders/burning themselves /getting stuff in their eyes............
Its coming to the point where people dont have to use any common sense what so ever in their daily lives around the house or work,its the goverments way of saying dont worry if youre too stupid to take care of yourself we're here to do it for you.


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Last edited by plummen; 10-30-2013 at 11:05 AM.
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Old 10-30-2013, 01:40 PM   #36
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Refridgerater on GFCI circuit?, Continuing debate


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Wrong again Greg, older appliances would trip GFCI's only because they were in fact leaking current, UL has far stricter requirements on appliances and allowable current leakage… Think about this, if an older appliance is tripping a GFCI at 5ma, how safe do you really think those appliances were?????

Washer do not require GFCI protection because they are not considered a portable appliance, lowering the chances that the ground pin will be intact, and dryers are above 20 amps, again, not going to be continually plugged and unplugged.
Older appliances leaked current, after the insulation broke down, same goes for newer appliances. It is just that older appliances would take more time before that happened, due to pride was taken in the manufacturing of the appliance. Now days you are lucky to get five years out of any appliance.

As for Wash machines & dryers, give NFPA time like I stated. Where you are thinking that is about portability of the device and constant plugging and unplugging is why GFCI protection is required, suggest you do some reading, why the government wanted GFCI protection. It has nothing to do with appliances, commercial kitchens, etc.

I will give you a clue, it has something to do with human stupidity of using stuff while standing in water, or using in wet areas. Does not matter what the device is, that did not make the decision why or how GFCI protection was introduced, or why it is used.
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Old 10-30-2013, 10:18 PM   #37
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Refridgerater on GFCI circuit?, Continuing debate


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I will give you a clue, it has something to do with human stupidity of using stuff while standing in water, or using in wet areas. Does not matter what the device is, that did not make the decision why or how GFCI protection was introduced, or why it is used.
It has nothing to do with standing in water… A ground pin trumps GFCI protection, every piece of commercial equipment is on wheels, the cleaning crews move this equipment frequently, often putting tension on the cords and snapping off the ground pin, GFCI protection is a second means of protection…

Im sorry, but you have no clue what you are talking about, at least in the eyes of the NEC requirements…. start reading the ROP's of code changes if you want to educate yourself.

Look at it this way and you tell me what you think, we can take two identical pieces of equipment and you can either cord and plug, or hard wire… yet only cord and plug requires GFCI protection, that alone tells you why GFCI's are required.

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Old 10-31-2013, 04:14 AM   #38
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Refridgerater on GFCI circuit?, Continuing debate


Washers have required GFI protection within 6 foot of a sink for several years. I have not heard any outcry over this.

UL tightened the allowable leakage current standards so you do not get the tripping like in the past.
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Old 10-31-2013, 11:44 AM   #39
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Refridgerater on GFCI circuit?, Continuing debate


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And they know this how
I spent many years on job sites doing electrical and plumbing jobs,I dont remember many people being shocked in situations where a gfi would have made a differance.
I spent about three years on large commercial jobsites, and I recall three instances where people were shocked and the lack of GFCI was a factor - and that's on jobsites where GFCI's are mandatory and that requirement was seriously enforced (by me, since that was my job). So those three shocks occurred within the very small subgroup of workers who violated the GFCI rule and hadn't been caught yet. I recall several specific instances of GFCI's tripping and doing their job, where the lack of the GFCI would probably have resulted in a serious shock.
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Old 10-31-2013, 03:40 PM   #40
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Refridgerater on GFCI circuit?, Continuing debate


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I don't know which one I hate worse, a fridge on a gfci or those God damned arc fault breakers that trip every friggin time you use a vacuum or whatever.
Just so you know the name God is not a curse word. Please try to be a little courteous.
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Old 10-31-2013, 03:54 PM   #41
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Refridgerater on GFCI circuit?, Continuing debate


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It has nothing to do with standing in water… A ground pin trumps GFCI protection, every piece of commercial equipment is on wheels, the cleaning crews move this equipment frequently, often putting tension on the cords and snapping off the ground pin, GFCI protection is a second means of protection…

Im sorry, but you have no clue what you are talking about, at least in the eyes of the NEC requirements…. start reading the ROP's of code changes if you want to educate yourself.

Look at it this way and you tell me what you think, we can take two identical pieces of equipment and you can either cord and plug, or hard wire… yet only cord and plug requires GFCI protection, that alone tells you why GFCI's are required.
Again, do you even listen to anyone. You are being petty about this whole matter. As for not having a clue, that sounds like you are speaking from your own opinion. Why not stop acting like a know it all Stickboy, who hates anyone that is not a part of your immature club of lets act like a two year old.

BTW, I probably know more about it in my little Pinky, then you do in that pea sized immature brain of your. Stop being petty, stop acting like a know it all, and above all, stop thinking that it is your way because that is how you are wanting it to be.

Again, has nothing to do with ground pins coming loose on plugs, so you sir or child, really need to go check your facts, if you are really a professional electrician. I have been around this stuff all my life, and do know also what is going to happen in a commercial kitchen, vs. what you imagine is going to happen.

So stop acting petty as I have stated before, and start acting like an adult.
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Old 10-31-2013, 04:28 PM   #42
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Refridgerater on GFCI circuit?, Continuing debate


Made a new thread. So now you guys can continue your debate, without the original thread starter getting notifications for post he probably doesn't want to read.
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Old 10-31-2013, 04:30 PM   #43
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Refridgerater on GFCI circuit?, Continuing debate


Sorry about cluttering stuff up,Im done now.
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Old 11-01-2013, 03:46 PM   #44
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Refridgerater on GFCI circuit?, Continuing debate


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I also call BS on the whole "What if it trips while you are on vacation?" line. A) No one leaves a refer full of fresh food when the go on vacation. B) If it's not tripping other times it's not going to trip while you are on vaca.
Will disagree with this. Maybe not in the refrigerator half, but the freezer half has several hundred $ worth of meat and fish at any given time.
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Old 11-01-2013, 03:52 PM   #45
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Refridgerater on GFCI circuit?, Continuing debate


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I guess I just grew up in a differant time with a differant mindset .Back then if something shocked you or burned you, you learned not to do that the next time.
That is the most ignorant comment i've ever read….

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