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Old 06-30-2011, 04:34 PM   #1
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re: receptacle replacement


I recently replaced an old receptacle (two prong) from 1950's to a new three prong receptacle.

there is no ground wire in the box, and I did the multimeter a/c voltage test to the box to see if the box was grounded. it was not. (with no ground wire)

I did not realize until after i installed it that I was supposed to use a GFCI.

I want to understand the reasoning for the GFCI preference in this application.
The questions are:

1. is what i did dangerous? I don't really see how much has changed from my old plug to my new (both are not protected)
2. the plugs that go into this box are all two prong. Does that make a difference, that i don't have 3 prong plugged devices?
3. Do GFCI achieve the same effect as a grounded plug? ie. if i decided to plug a three prong device in the future, will a GFCI actually "ground" or "protect" my plugged in devices.
4. If i discover on future installs, that there is no ground wire, but the box is grounded through the multimeter test, what is the best method to proceed? standard three prong with ground wire to the box? or GCFI with a ground to the box. (is it worth spending the $15 for every receptacle.
5. if anyone knows any exceptions or differences for the Canadian code, i would be interested to hear that.

thanks in advance

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Old 06-30-2011, 04:41 PM   #2
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re: receptacle replacement


If the plugs are all two prong then you should have just left the two prong receptacle.
It is only dangerous if someone plugs in a grounded device and it has a fault.

GFCI protects the user in case there is a short that energizes the metal parts of the unit. If someone touches the metal frame and starts to receive a shock the GFCI will trip before they know it.

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Old 06-30-2011, 04:44 PM   #3
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re: receptacle replacement


Yes in a rare instance what you did could be fatal. You now have a chance to plug in a grounded item to where there is no ground.

Lets say you plug your vacuum cleaner in and there is a problem and the hot wire inside the vacuum gets shorted to metal part of the vacuum.

With a proper ground it would short out and trip the breaker preventing any harm.

With out the ground there it will short out but have no place to go. Once you grab it the vacuum and complete the path to ground you will get electructed.

A GFI will be able to tell if the current on the hot wire is different then the current on the white wire. If it sense this it will trip itself before causeing any injuries.

So yes it can be dangerous and it also against code to do that. I believe you can buy two prong outlets still, you may need to look online or go to a wholesaler.
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Old 06-30-2011, 04:57 PM   #4
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re: receptacle replacement


I have a 1950's house also. When I moved in, I noted that the metal boxes were grounded, however there was no ground wire inside the box. The ground wire was wrapped around an outside screw on the box. It is possible that some of your outlets are grounded this way. Of course, when you checked the existing cable, if it was two wire with no ground, that would indicate that the specific outlet was not grounded. I don't know exactly what "voltage test" you performed with your multimeter, however just because you read 120 volts between the hot leg and the box does NOT indicate that your box is properly grounded. A properly grounded box requires a ground wire to run from the box to the service. It is possible, perhaps unlikely, that a box may be touching metal in the house, say a copper water line, which is "grounded", although not to code, in which case the voltage between the hot and the box could indeed read 120 volts.

Is what you did dangerous? Well it clearly did not change the existing condition, i.e. you still have an ungrounded outlet. However, it does present the illusion that you do have a grounded outlet, so a person might in fact use the outlet under the mistaken impression that it is grounded. Using an ungrounded outlet is more dangerous than using a properly grounded outlet, I leave it to the philosophers to determine if a three prong, ungrounded outlet is more dangerous than a 2 prong, ungrounded outlet. It might violate Canadian code, I would not know.

A GFI works regardless of whether your outlet is grounded or not. The GFI monitors the difference between the incoming and outgoing current, i.e. the difference in amperage between the hot and the neutral. I believe most of them are set to trip at about 5 milliamps, which is well below the danger threshold for humans. Installing a GFI provides a much safer outlet than one without GFI protection, especially in conditions where the person might be wet (bathroom, garage, outdoor outlet, kitchen). However, the GFI per se does not ground the outlet, so if you do install a GFI, you need to label the outlet NO GROUND, at least in the states.
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Old 06-30-2011, 06:03 PM   #5
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re: receptacle replacement


In the '50's you may find that you have metal junction boxes which are bonded by way of metal conduit, be it metal conduit pipe or flexible metal conduit, with 2-conductor wire that does not have a ground wire.

On what basis is it that you believe you need GFI? GFI use requirements are based on location, generally it is in required in wet locations and these are generally the bathroom, kitchen, basement and garage. Laundry and outdoor as well.
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Old 06-30-2011, 06:18 PM   #6
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re: receptacle replacement


Quote:
On what basis is it that you believe you need GFI?
the reason for the sudden change is, those old two pronged outlets had two small holes. ie. many standard two pronged plugs have a large neutral prong that did not fit at all in the socket. I had to run an extension cord across the room. coupled with the fact that there is an elderly person in the house, i didn't want him to trip on the extension cord. Every time i finished working in the room, i would move the cord off the floor towards the wall. it seemed unsafe and ridiculous.

so from what i understand from these posts, please correct me if i'm wrong, with no ground, the GFCI will protect me from shorts, but it will not protect my equipment from a sudden shock because i have no ground form - like a thunderstorm?

also, i mentioned, that none of the plugged items in those receptacles have a ground, like a tv, radio, lamp

but in the future that could change.

I am already convinced to get one, for the safety factor.

Is it ok to wait until i start using three pronged items in those particluar receptacles, or should I replace the newly installed ones right away with a GFCI?

thanks

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Old 06-30-2011, 10:16 PM   #7
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re: receptacle replacement


A GFCI protects people, not equipment.

Yes, you should replace it now, while it’s still fresh in your mind to do. 1) It’s a code violation 2) do it for the protection of people it offers. A GFCI receptacle…10 bucks, an person injured or killed…priceless.
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Old 07-01-2011, 12:15 AM   #8
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re: receptacle replacement


With all due respect, I can't help but feel a little worried giving this advice when I get the sense that he's not comprehending the basics behind what is being proposed.

For my part I'm a layman not an electrician, and what I do know is based on NEC and its application in the US, I know little enough about Canadian code to say I might as well not know anything... So with that in mind, here's my concerns:

1) I don't know what location these outlets in question are - if it's not a wet location, is AFCI the more appropriate protective mechanism than GFCI? I've gathered that according to code that is, but I'll admit that I don't actually understand the rationale and as such I could only make recommendations based on following what I know of NEC.

2) The poster keeps talking about replacing the outlets he put in (plural) with GFCI, which implies to me that he isn't aware that he only needs one GFCI outlet so that all downstream outlets in the circuit will have GFCI protection. I was similarly unaware on my first electrical permit project, wired a basement workshop and bought a dozen GFCI.... This was new wiring so it had the advantage that I could easily identify the first receptacle in a circuit, I didn't learn that I only needed 1 until I called for rough inspection - in the mean time I also installed outlets on wires before rough (again because it was my first time, and I didn't know exactly how much I needed to do before calling for rough other than that I was not to cover walls with drywall), and as such it took me a lot of trial and error before I even figured out about putting load wires on the load side of the GFCI and line wires on the line side of the GFCI - Imagine how much I was tripping GFCI's on top of GFCI's. (And at the risk of showing what a noob I was, I even started off wiring the project as a MWBC... Don't ask, I got it right later and redid the whole thing)

Before the poster starts installing GFCI, we really need to establish if he can identify the first outlet in the circuit.

3) If there is difficulty establishing clearly that the box is not grounded and not being sure what outlet is electrically closest to the panel, it probably would still be best to replace the 2 prong receptacles with new 2 prong receptacles. The original problem was that the wider neutral prong doesn't fit into the older receptacles. New 2-prong receptacles will resolve this issue.
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Old 07-01-2011, 12:59 PM   #9
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re: receptacle replacement


***new information collected***, mystery ensues.



These two receptacles in the living room are the only two I have encountered with no ground (i didn't check before i bought the new receptacles assuming there were grounds like the rest of the receptacles I have replaced in the past). I probably replaced 8-10 in the house so far. They all had grounds. These two in the living room are the only ones that did not have it in the box.
I have just done some more investigation (edited this post). I looked at the cables attached to the breaker panel. THey all look the same. The cables are marked "Triangle Triex 14/2 with Ground" . That means there should be a ground wire throughout the house.

I just want to know the better method, two prong or GCFI or other method and if they are legal. that's it. Is it possible someone cut off the ground? leading to the box. that means if I could only reach it somehow and reconnect it.

suggestions appreciated.


these two outlets are in the same room, but are on different breakers. One of these two has two sets of neutral and hots. I think that means it could be the first receptacle in in the circuit, but not necessarily.

The reason for wanting to install a GFCI is I am just trying to follow recommendations from posts in this forum. I would like to point out, that the reason why I bought standard 3 prong outlets, is because in other ares in the house, I have found grounding wires when those receptacles were replaced (maybe have done 10 so far).

WillK: This is a forum of advice to "do it yourself" getting advice from other people who are experienced in this particular topic. I know you are trying to help, but at the same time, your not helping by going way off topic for the questions I posted. First of all, posters should address what they have to say to the poster, and not to "the rest of the group". Frankly, I find some of your remarks condescending, implying that I am not aware of basic electrical. If you read the posts from top to bottom and don't understand what I said. If i was not clear on a description, ask a question on what I meant rather than making that assumption that I just don't know. That is rude. You should not school anyone on an obscure bit of information that the laymen don't know, that is only slightly relevant to this topic and holding it over my head. This is a thread killer and helps no one. It seems you were not trying to come off as rude, so I don't take offence to it.

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Old 07-01-2011, 01:55 PM   #10
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re: receptacle replacement


Alright, so if this is for 2 outlets in a living room on 2 different circuits, one of these outlets clearly has additional outlets in some other room on the same circuit.

I think both of your options are legal, the new 2-prong solution is more straightforward obviously, and my story was intended to illustrate the challenges I had on a previous project which are the kind of challenges one might face without understanding what they are getting into.

I'll focus on informing regarding GFCI:

First of all, your installation is error-resistant because GFCI are shipped with the breaker tripped and you can't reset it until you have it connected correctly with power on... If you have a wiring error you won't be able to turn it on.

So as you know, it offers additional safety. It would be your decision if you want to choose GFCI or conventional 2-prong receptacles, so consider the drawbacks which generally relate to the fact you're adding something that might cut off power. Two things to consider:

1) You had said someone elderly will be in the house, I don't know the people in your house, but I'd consider whether they'd be comfortable with resetting the GFCI. It's a small button and the location of the receptacle might be somewhere low to the ground that might be difficult for some elderly to bend down to reach.

2) For the outlet that has other outlets on the circuit, a GFCI trip might disable other outlets and someone else in the house not familiar with how the house is wired might be confused and unable to figure out what is going on. This might be prevented if you only wired the GFCI line side and pigtailed the wires so whatever else is on the circuit doesn't need to connect to the load side of the GFCI.

Being that we're talking about a living room, if this was being done to current code, arc-fault protection would be appropriate rather than GFCI. This can be done without rewiring, it is a matter of replacing a circuit breaker in the panel. If you consider this a third option, I'd point out that it would be the most expensive of the 3 options. I'm just pointing this out because I think you should understand it well enough to weigh it as an option.

I'll also point out the drawbacks of AFCI. For AFCI, the neutral wire in the panel connects to the breaker rather than the neutral bar, and then there is a white wire from the breaker that connects to the neutral bar. It is a larger breaker and it might be difficult to install in some areas.

And as far as your 2 outlets not being grounded, I'm not sure you've really presented enough information to conclude that they are ungrounded. I understand that there are not ground wires. I had a house built in 1950 and I had outlets that did not have ground wires, but they were grounded.

If these outlets are in junction boxes that are not metal, and you have no ground wire, I would agree that definitely means it is ungrounded - but I don't think non-metallic junction boxes were in use in the '50's so that seems unlikely.

You described an AC voltmeter check. I'm assuming you are working with a multimeter. With the circuitbreaker off, you could check with your multimeter set to read resistance and put one lead on the junction box and the other on neutral. If the resistance is 0 or a low number, then your junction box is most likely grounded and your 3-prong outlets are okay. If it doesn't give a resistance reading, then the box is not grounded.

I'd do this check to both wires going to the outlet, just in case the neutral is not the wire that you expect it to be. It wouldn't be the first time hot and neutral were switched, I had that in the kitchen of my current house.
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Old 07-01-2011, 02:16 PM   #11
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re: receptacle replacement


If all the other NM cable in the house has a ground wire, then I suspect the wire was either cut or broken off in these two boxes. If you have enough slack in the wires, you may be able to pull more wire into the box and find enough bare wire to make a connection. You stated that one box had cable entering and leaving the box... if there is really no ground wire there, then the box(es) downstream should also check as ungrounded.
The NEC gives you the option of installing a two prong receptacle, a GFCI labeled with "no equipment ground", or running a new ground wire from there back to the panel or the grounding electrode conductor. I think the CEC may be very similar.
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Old 07-01-2011, 04:26 PM   #12
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re: receptacle replacement


Just a note. When replacing a 2-prong, ungrounded receptacle, you do not have to install an AFCI breaker, whether that jurisdiction now requires them for a particular room or not. Replacing a receptacle is considered a minor repair, and would not warrant any such ‘upgrade’. Also, changing from a 2-prong to a standard 3-prong and adding a AFCI's still would not make it compliant. AFCI do not work the same as a GFCI, and are not a suitable replacement. AFCI’s help protect the building from fire, GFCI’s protect people from shock.
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Old 07-01-2011, 09:59 PM   #13
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re: receptacle replacement


I checked one of the other outlets on one of the circuits (it is in the basement under the living room). that basement box has a ground wire, and I believe the ground wire is functioning.

I would be the only person "in charge" of this sort of thing in the house. I have to assist that elderly person on a regular basis.

Quote:
Being that we're talking about a living room, if this was being done to current code, arc-fault protection would be appropriate rather than GFCI. This can be done without rewiring, it is a matter of replacing a circuit breaker in the panel. If you consider this a third option, I'd point out that it would be the most expensive of the 3 options. I'm just pointing this out because I think you should understand it well enough to weigh it as an option.
correct me if i am wrong -->So this method protects me from shocks, fires, but not the equipment from being fried
They are metal boxes for sure.

Quote:
You described an AC voltmeter check. I'm assuming you are working with a multimeter. With the circuitbreaker off,
I was reading another post on this forum where someone recommended connecting the positive red lead from a multimeter to the hot wire, and the negative black to the box (in A/C volt mode). If there was ~120v showing, then it was grounded. I tried that and got a reading that fluctuated from time to time but, somewhere around 0.1v. This is how i assumed the box was not grounded

Quote:
you could check with your multimeter set to read resistance and put one lead on the junction box and the other on neutral. If the resistance is 0 or a low number, then your junction box is most likely grounded and your 3-prong outlets are okay. If it doesn't give a resistance reading, then the box is not grounded.
what resistance value is generally used for this sort of test? Is the quality of this test the same as the one I had just mentioned?

Quote:
If all the other NM cable in the house has a ground wire, then I suspect the wire was either cut or broken off in these two boxes. If you have enough slack in the wires, you may be able to pull more wire into the box and find enough bare wire to make a connection. You stated that one box had cable entering and leaving the box... if there is really no ground wire there, then the box(es) downstream should also check as ungrounded.
If they were broken off, I would love to set this right, but I think i should call in someone to help with that sort of thing.

Quote:
The NEC gives you the option of installing a two prong receptacle, a GFCI labeled with "no equipment ground", or running a new ground wire from there back to the panel or the grounding electrode conductor. I think the CEC may be very similar.
what is grounding the electrode conductor?

Quote:
AFCI’s help protect the building from fire, GFCI’s protect people from shock.
Does it make sense to install both? an AFCI at the box, and a GCFI at the receptacles?

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Old 07-02-2011, 08:18 AM   #14
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re: receptacle replacement


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Originally Posted by gramps416 View Post
I checked one of the other outlets on one of the circuits (it is in the basement under the living room). that basement box has a ground wire, and I believe the ground wire is functioning.

I would be the only person "in charge" of this sort of thing in the house. I have to assist that elderly person on a regular basis.
Well you do have to consider that there might be times where you aren't around, and in the long term consider that some day somebody else will live in the house... But it sounds like it's not a major problem to you

Quote:
correct me if i am wrong -->So this method protects me from shocks, fires, but not the equipment from being fried
They are metal boxes for sure.
Well... let me try explaining what the 3 types of protection do...

Grounding protects anything, the idea is that if electricity is trying to go somewhere other than where it's intended, it will go on a wire because it is the easiest path for it to take. Without the ground wire, the electricity might try to go through a person causing injury or through something like the house where it might ignite a fire. Grounding systems are compatible with and used simultaneously with other protection methods.

If something happens where the ground wire has to carry electricity so that it isn't going through a person, this tends to draw a lot of current and will hopefully cause the breaker to trip.

GFCI shuts off power when there's a difference in the electricity through the hot wire and the neutral where it is intended to be returning. This is something that happens when people become electrical conductors as might happen because their wet and holding something electrical like a hairdryer.

AFCI is electronic and looks for changes to the alternating circuit signal that indicate that there's some sort of arc that might start a fire.

I look at all of these as things that protect people and equipment and the house in a way...

Quote:
I was reading another post on this forum where someone recommended connecting the positive red lead from a multimeter to the hot wire, and the negative black to the box (in A/C volt mode). If there was ~120v showing, then it was grounded. I tried that and got a reading that fluctuated from time to time but, somewhere around 0.1v. This is how i assumed the box was not grounded

what resistance value is generally used for this sort of test? Is the quality of this test the same as the one I had just mentioned?
In general when using resistance for continuity checks you're looking for either infinite resistance or zero resistance, you might see small numbers for resistance and it's generally the same as zero. This isn't something where you're going to see something middle of the range between infinite and zero, you aren't likely to see anything over 100, probably not over 10 ohms.

Quote:
If they were broken off, I would love to set this right, but I think i should call in someone to help with that sort of thing.

what is grounding the electrode conductor?

Does it make sense to install both? an AFCI at the box, and a GCFI at the receptacles?
Usually you can't... I think if you install a GFCI outlet on an AFCI circuit they'd either trip eachother or the maybe the GFCI alters the signal somehow that makes the AFCI not work right.. I don't know for sure why or what happens but AFCI instructions will say that you can't install GFCI on a circuit with AFCI protection.

I think code wants GFCI in wet locations because people getting shocked is more likely in those locations while code wants AFCI in other locations because the fire risk is the more likely thing to happen.
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Old 07-02-2011, 08:48 AM   #15
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re: receptacle replacement


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Just a note. When replacing a 2-prong, ungrounded receptacle, you do not have to install an AFCI breaker, whether that jurisdiction now requires them for a particular room or not. Replacing a receptacle is considered a minor repair, and would not warrant any such ‘upgrade’. Also, changing from a 2-prong to a standard 3-prong and adding a AFCI's still would not make it compliant. AFCI do not work the same as a GFCI, and are not a suitable replacement. AFCI’s help protect the building from fire, GFCI’s protect people from shock.
Ya know, I just have to say that even after all the projects I've been through, as someone that's not an electrician this stuff confuses me... In order of least confusing to most confusing, the way I see it:

1) repairing things without making changes is the least confusing
2) rebuilding things as it would be built in new construction is more confusing
3) repairing old electrical but not completely replacing it is the most confusing

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