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Old 02-14-2013, 10:56 AM   #1
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range outlet w/o neutral, but needed


Good morning all, my knowledge in wiring is pretty basic and I have a situation:

Bought a house a little bit old, bought range brand new; plugged in, heating cooktop works, display and oven controls doesn't (so oven doesn't either)

the oven was conected to a 3 pins range outlet, measured them, got ~220 for hots, ~30 for a hot and middle conector; turned of breaker, unscrewed outlet and found 1 white 1 black but a paper wrapped solid copper ground wire in the middle, read somewhere that neutral could be used as ground, but not the other way around since I need 110V to run clock and display.

What can be done?

1) is rewiring the only option? (the breaker box is pretty far from the kitchen, i have no idea thru where the cable reaches it)
2) can a neutral be pulled from another (110V) outlet nearby?
3) in the breaker box can i remove the ground (assuming it reaches there) and conect it to a neutral to use as one?

thanks for all your imputs and advices

rgds, Meksyk

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Old 02-14-2013, 11:08 AM   #2
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range outlet w/o neutral, but needed


Only option is to run a new four wire feed. And you should be getting 120 from each hot to ground. You have a bad ground connection somewhere.

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Old 02-14-2013, 11:12 AM   #3
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range outlet w/o neutral, but needed


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Only option is to run a new four wire feed. And you should be getting 120 from each hot to ground. You have a bad ground connection somewhere.
If if fix the ground, would it work? if I read correctly, ground ins not supposed to be used for current, right?
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Old 02-14-2013, 11:31 AM   #4
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range outlet w/o neutral, but needed


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Originally Posted by meksyk View Post
If if fix the ground, would it work? if I read correctly, ground ins not supposed to be used for current, right?
Yes. You are not required to replace the cable if it is still good.
Open the breaker panel and make sure the bare ground is connected.

I also recommend cable replacement. But you are not required to replace it as it already exists.
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Old 02-14-2013, 11:37 AM   #5
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range outlet w/o neutral, but needed


1) is rewiring the only option? (the breaker box is pretty far from the kitchen, i have no idea thru where the cable reaches it)
Rewiring is not the only option but it is the best one. You can use an existing three prong outlet as long as you are replacing the range that is there. If you were running a new circuit you would be required to upgrade the wiring to a four prong receptacle (three wire with ground).
2) can a neutral be pulled from another (110V) outlet nearby?
No you cannot pull a neutral from another circuit.

3) in the breaker box can i remove the ground (assuming it reaches there) and conect it to a neutral to use as one?

If you are not rewiring the circuit you should not have to touch the panel.
Not sure why you are getting only 30 volts from hot to ground. You should read 120 volts from each hot leg to the ground. Also I would check the wiring in the range junction box and see if the three prong cord is hooked up properly. The neutral and ground bonding strap should be attached inside the range. If you upgrade to a four prong cord you remove the bonding strap.
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Old 02-14-2013, 12:35 PM   #6
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range outlet w/o neutral, but needed


Quote:
Originally Posted by meksyk
Good morning all, my knowledge in wiring is pretty basic and I have a situation:

Bought a house a little bit old, bought range brand new; plugged in, heating cooktop works, display and oven controls doesn't (so oven doesn't either)

the oven was conected to a 3 pins range outlet, measured them, got ~220 for hots, ~30 for a hot and middle conector; turned of breaker, unscrewed outlet and found 1 white 1 black but a paper wrapped solid copper ground wire in the middle, read somewhere that neutral could be used as ground, but not the other way around since I need 110V to run clock and display.

What can be done?

1) is rewiring the only option? (the breaker box is pretty far from the kitchen, i have no idea thru where the cable reaches it)
2) can a neutral be pulled from another (110V) outlet nearby?
3) in the breaker box can i remove the ground (assuming it reaches there) and conect it to a neutral to use as one?

thanks for all your imputs and advices

rgds, Meksyk
Your ONLY option is to replace the cable with 8/3 or 6/3 cable. What you have is two conductor NM wiring which is not now or never has been code compliant. The only compliant cable would have been SE type or three conductor NM with no ground (all three conductors insulated). You were allowed the use the three conductor and tie the range ground to the neutral, but only if the power source originated at the main service.
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Old 02-14-2013, 02:51 PM   #7
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range outlet w/o neutral, but needed


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Your ONLY option is to replace the cable with 8/3 or 6/3 cable. What you have is two conductor NM wiring which is not now or never has been code compliant. The only compliant cable would have been SE type or three conductor NM with no ground (all three conductors insulated). You were allowed the use the three conductor and tie the range ground to the neutral, but only if the power source originated at the main service.
I just want to confirm something, since is an old two stories condo, it would be easier to get anoter oven instead of rewiring.

The cable is a non metalic sheated with two shielded and one bare cable, since the 2 hots are already shielded and so is the cable overall, is there a reason I cannot at the breaker box connect the ground cable to the neutral instead of the ground line? would it be unsafe? I know they had a range there before, but i don't know if they modified something in the wiring

Last edited by meksyk; 02-14-2013 at 02:57 PM.
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Old 02-14-2013, 03:22 PM   #8
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range outlet w/o neutral, but needed


Quote:
Originally Posted by meksyk View Post
I just want to confirm something, since is an old two stories condo, it would be easier to get anoter oven instead of rewiring.

The cable is a non metalic sheated with two shielded and one bare cable, since the 2 hots are already shielded and so is the cable overall, is there a reason I cannot at the breaker box connect the ground cable to the neutral instead of the ground line? would it be unsafe? I know they had a range there before, but i don't know if they modified something in the wiring
Yes, it would be unsafe!
What you have is NOT acceptable for the required 120/240V circuit for a range.
The ground CANNOT be used as a neutral.

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Answers based on the 2008 & 2011 NEC.
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