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Old 01-27-2008, 09:32 PM   #16
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You would honestly let a bare ground from an NM cable carry circuit current??????

As opposed to a bare ground from an SE cable carrying current?


What is your logic here?




Quote:
I don't know how this can be ANY clearer. The NEUTRAL is no longer permitted to be used for grounding.

Except in EXISTING circuits. There are millions of existing circuits. That's why they wrote rhe exception. Why the limited it to SE makes no sense. Both SE and NM have BARE conductors.

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Old 01-27-2008, 09:36 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by 220/221 View Post
As opposed to a bare ground from an SE cable carrying current?


What is your logic here?
1) The bare/braided grounded conductor of SE cable is SUPPOSED to carry current. 90% of the homes in this country use it for services.

2) Mr. NEC SAY SO! Right up there under Exceptions. See #3?

If you are saying the grounded conductor of SE cable and the bare grounding conductor in NM cable are the same you are worse off than I thought.

Use your twisted logic all you want to break code. Just DO NOT tell others to do the same!
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Old 01-27-2008, 09:42 PM   #18
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To quote you......whatever.
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Old 01-28-2008, 01:33 AM   #19
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The suggestion to use an NM-B cable 2 conductor with EGC (equipment ground wire) to serve this range would create by my count at least 5 code violations. I to am shocked that this is being suggested.

The reason for not allowing this NM cable is a result of concentrated effort beginning in 1996 by the NEC and the NFPA to not allow anymore 3 wire range connections that are not existing SE cables for range circuits or cables using an insulated neutral. The SE type cable (they were usually aluminum btw) was used due to a copper shortage that extended over a few decades...so most SE used in 3 wire range connections is a very old installation. Why not 3 wire?... because of the deaths reported due to electrocution from energized metal frames from ranges fed with 3 wire connections. The exception for SE is due to the millions of installations prior to 1996 and would not be reasonable to require them to be changed....the task would be overwhelming. But they needed to start somewhere. This is no different than when the NEC required nm cable to have a egc ran with the conductors. It increases safety and prevents deaths from touching metal parts that have become energized. The fact that the ground or the neutral was bare, which ever way you want to look at it, was secondary to having neutral to ground connections on the load side of the service equipment. The dangers of making a connection like this should be common knowledge to any electrician. Se cable when used as a service entrance cable as Speedy said is intended to carry current and the bare concentric braided wire is identified as the ground for purposes of service entrance use. However the use of SE on range circuits would violate that identification due to load side connection of ground to the neutral. Believe me the NEC wishes the problem didn't exist with all these SE cables out there. It was allowed out of necessity and the statistics for household electrocutions because of it prompted the NEC to change the code in 1996.

The presence of that NM cable in that ceiling box to serve a range branch circuit would cause any inspector to reach for his red tags. To suggest otherwise as a trained electrician is rather hard to swallow. This simply is not allowed for a range branch circuit and frankly never was allowed. You would have two huge code violations and a few safety concerns immediately upon hooking that nm to a range cord and receptacle.

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Don't use that cable it is not what you want. Your stove based on the link you supplied is 120/240 volt range and will require it to be treated as a new installation mandating a 4 wire branch circuit replacing the non-compliant existing cable. If you look you can see that the cable was ran thru drilled out holes in the ceiling fixture box. A sure sign this was done by a person without proper knowledge of what he was doing ... thus the incorrect cable.

BTW... the specifications you listed are for the oven only not the requirements for the entire range as a unit appliance.

You need a minimum 40 amp branch circuit ran for your new range. You will follow the 4- wire connection diagram in the instructions that came with your range. I took the liberty to include some of those instructions in the third image below. First I am going to show what your connection to the range terminal block is going to look like and then point a few things out to you. This image by the way is a GE range terminal block and should be very similar to yours. The white wire connected to the center terminal is the neutral wire. The black and red are your hot conductors. The green of course is your equipment ground. This is showing the correct connection for your application. For a 3 wire connection there will be a metal strap from the white wire connection to where you see the green wire only that green wire is not present in a 3 wire range cord connection. So if it is installed you must remove that metal strap and that procedure is shown in the image after this one. The second image is the correct junction box using what is called a 1/2" raised double gang mud ring on a 4x4 by 2 1/8" metal box with a receptacle like yours installed. We can help you with the wiring if you like..... just ask.



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Old 01-28-2008, 04:26 AM   #20
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Quote:
to serve this range would create by my count at least 5 code violations
List them, keeping in mind that this is an existing circuit installed in 1985. The only thing you will find is 250.140 (3) which says it must be SE.

Explain the difference between NM and SE. Both have 2 insulated conductors and a bare ground. NM has a solid ground (#10 in this case) and SE has a stranded ground wrapped around the insulated conductors.

Someone suggested earlier that the SE was DESIGNED to be a neutral but offered up nothing to back this up.

The bottom line is that with either SE or NM installations you have what is considered an unsafe installation by modern standards. Current will be carried thru the appliance in question IF there is a 120v circuit in it. If the conductor carrying that current is broken, the current could pass thru someone who comes in contact with it while it is operating.

The 4 wire requirement for new installations is a VERY GOOD thing. The 3 wire system always seemed wrong to me, even in the 70's when I first started wiring. The 3 wire system is acceptable for existing circuits IF it is SE. If someone can explain to me why SE is any different that NM in this application I am all ears and would change my stance in a heartbeat.
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Old 01-28-2008, 07:31 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by 220/221 View Post
Explain the difference between NM and SE. Both have 2 insulated conductors and a bare ground. NM has a solid ground (#10 in this case) and SE has a stranded ground wrapped around the insulated conductors.

Someone suggested earlier that the SE was DESIGNED to be a neutral but offered up nothing to back this up.
I triple-dog-dare you to go over to Mike Holts site, ElectricianTalk, ECN, or any other reputable TRADE site and ask this question.

Be sure to tell them you are a seasoned electrician doing this since the 70's.

We'll let those guys explain.
Let us know the results.
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Old 01-28-2008, 10:24 AM   #22
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What if one of them is an undersized neutral since this is a cable assembly? And if this is an old black NM_b it is way to small for the neutral and what if I told you the neutral must be full sized in this application. What if I told you that you cannot use an equipment ground wire as a neutral nor can you reidentify it as one. And of course the one you proclaim the NEC to be ridiculous about. The neutral must be insulated unless it is an SE cable and you would be connecting a bare equipment ground to a neutral connection of a listed receptacle. And just for thought how about the one that requires you as a professional to adhere to the proper wiring requirements and code requirementsof the NEC.

MY question to you is why are you waging this argument? You have one obvious code violation you have already admitted to why do you feel you need to violate others to justify the one?
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Old 01-28-2008, 10:49 AM   #23
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Quote:
The neutral must be insulated unless it is an SE cable and you would be connecting a bare equipment ground to a neutral connection of a listed receptacle

You would be connecting a bare equipment ground to a neutral with SE cable. What is the difference?


Quote:
MY question to you is why are you waging this argument?

I am SIMPLY looking for a SIMPLE answer.

What is the difference in this case between SE and NM and why is NM considered dangerous and SE is not? I am looking for a REAL answer.....a physical answer. Something to do with safety, heat, electron flow....anything. Hell, just throw a THEORY out there. I might be missing something.
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Old 01-28-2008, 11:44 AM   #24
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Somehow I don't think anything I could say or any other professional is going to make any difference to you. You seem to think everyone has to prove things to you. Your argument is like saying the world is flat and refusing for what ever reason to admit you are wrong. Which I don't think is a word in your vocabulary. I really don't know how things can be much more simple than what has been said already.
Now having said that why are you trying so desperately to steer the issue in another direction by talking about cable differences? I suspect even the op of this thread can figure that out by now.
Last thing I will say is... you have not had the respect to climb off that pedestal of yours and provide one ounce of reasoning why you are correct and we are wrong. There is no reason I or anyone else should be demanded by you to prove anything. YOU are the one who placed all the shaking head smilies in your posts and loudly proclaimed we were in error. The proof is in your court not ours. I regret having wasted my time with this. I thought I was dealing with another professional and I see I was mistaken.

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Old 01-28-2008, 05:10 PM   #25
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you have not had the respect to climb off that pedestal of yours and provide one ounce of reasoning why you are correct and we are wrong.
Sure I have.

I explained EXACTLY why I think I am right.

Again, I think SE and NM are basically the same thing. SE has been around longer than the larger sized NM but they are BOTH two insulated conductors with a BARE ground surrounded by a thermoplastic sheathing.

Why they allow the 3wire SE circuit and not the 3 wire NM circuit is beyond my comprehension. If you don't know why, I can certainly understand. If you are touting the dangers of such an installation it seems that you would have at least some idea of WHY it is dangerous.

When I asked you to offer even a theory why my logic is incorrect all you can do is try and insult me. That doesn't do anybody any good.

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There is no reason I or anyone else should be demanded by you to prove anything.

I demanded you to prove something?

I asked for an opinion.

If you have one I'd be glad to hear it. I ALWAYS want to know "why". It's my nature.
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Old 01-28-2008, 08:37 PM   #26
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Sure I have.

I explained EXACTLY why I think I am right
.

Yes and it is your opinion that NM-b is the same as SE and the NEC is incorrect that they limit the pre existing range circuits to SE cable and if not SE limited to insulated neutrals and neutrals that must be at least #10 awg cu. So you are telling the OP that it is all nonsense what the NEC requires and go ahead and use that cable cause you say it's ok.


Lets start this way. If NM-b is the Same as SE like you so proudly proclaim to be the case. Would it be all right with you if I issue the 221 proclamation of equality to the electrical industry so we can start using NM-b for service entrance? They are the same after all.

Last question....was NM-b 2 conductor with ground code compliant for a 120/240 volt range circuit prior to 1996 or modern times as you put it? Remember to bear in mind that this circuit is pre existing.....sound familiar?

Be careful how you answer this one because a heck of a lot of professionals are now watching this thread. I assume you will have the respect to answer it.

By the way your use of laughing Icons to represent your intelligence tells me you have not now or ever cared about the WHY of anything.

Quote:
Why they allow the 3wire SE circuit and not the 3 wire NM circuit is beyond my comprehension.
So your ability to comprehend is now the basis for abiding by the electrical codes??

I'll be sure to remove that page about pre existing range circuits from my handbook and code book..after all who needs it.

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Old 01-28-2008, 10:09 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 220/221 View Post
I am SIMPLY looking for a SIMPLE answer.
At the risk of a severe headach trying to explain simple things to you, and agaist my better judgement, I will try and give you a simple answer.

- Do you agree that the bare wire in NM cable is the "equipment grounding conductor"? Please say yes. It is the ONLY correct answer.
Hint: See NEC Art. 334 III. Construction Specifications
334.108 Equipment Grounding

In addition to the insulated conductors, the cable shall have an insulated or bare conductor for equipment grounding purposes only.


- Do you agree that the proper name for a neutral is the "grounded conductor"? Again, the only correct answer is yes. See NEC Art. 200 for details.

Now......

NEC Art. 100
Grounded Conductor.
A system or circuit conductor that is intentionally grounded.

Grounding Conductor, Equipment. The conductor used to connect the non–current-carrying metal parts of equipment, raceways, and other enclosures to the system grounded conductor, the grounding electrode conductor, or both, at the service equipment or at the source of a separately derived system.


So tell me you still think they are the same thing.......this is the best I could do on such short notice.
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Old 01-28-2008, 10:17 PM   #28
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Here's more:

ARTICLE 338 Service-Entrance Cable: Types SE and USE
338.10 Uses Permitted
(A) Service-Entrance Conductors
Service-entrance cable shall be permitted to be used as service-entrance conductors and shall be installed in accordance with 230.6, 230.7, and Parts II, III, and IV of Article 230.
Type USE used for service laterals shall be permitted to emerge from the ground outside at terminations in meter bases or other enclosures where protected in accordance with 300.5(D).
(B) Branch Circuits or Feeders
(1) Grounded Conductor Insulated
Type SE service-entrance cables shall be permitted in wiring systems where all of the circuit conductors of the cable are of the rubber-covered or thermoplastic type.
Branch circuits using service-entrance cable as a wiring method are permitted only if all circuit conductors within the cable are fully insulated according to 310.13. The equipment grounding conductor is the only conductor permitted to be bare within service-entrance cable used for branch circuits.
(2) Grounded Conductor Not Insulated Type SE service-entrance cable shall be permitted for use where the insulated conductors are used for circuit wiring and the uninsulated conductor is used only for equipment grounding purposes.
Exception: Uninsulated conductors shall be permitted as a grounded conductor in accordance with 250.140, 250.32, and 225.30 through 225.40.
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Old 01-28-2008, 10:31 PM   #29
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Yes and it is your opinion that NM-b is the same as SE and the NEC is incorrect that they limit the pre existing range circuits to SE cable and if not SE limited to insulated neutrals and neutrals that must be at least #10 awg cu. So you are telling the OP that it is all nonsense what the NEC requires and go ahead and use that cable cause you say it's ok.
That is correct.


Quote:
Lets start this way. If NM-b is the Same as SE like you so proudly proclaim to be the case. Would it be all right with you if I issue the 221 proclamation of equality to the electrical industry so we can start using NM-b for service entrance? They are the same after all.
Knock yourself out. In the end we are all responsible for our own work.

In my opinion using SE for a service entrance conductors, although legal, is dangerous and shows a total lack of quality. Who the hell would run unprotected conductors inside a feaking house? Lot's of people I guess. I don't care if the code says it's safe. I say it's not and I wouldn't do it.



Quote:
Last question....was NM-b 2 conductor with ground code compliant for a 120/240 volt range circuit prior to 1996 or modern times as you put it? Remember to bear in mind that this circuit is pre existing.....sound familiar?

Be careful how you answer this one because a heck of a lot of professionals are now watching this thread. I assume you will have the respect to answer it.
I don't know 100% the answer to this. It would require some research. All I know is that NM over #10 wasn't available here so we always used SE. When #8 and #6 NM became the standard it seems to have replaced SE as the cable of choice. I am basing this solely on my experience and all the wotrk I have seen thru the evoltion of electrical systems.



Quote:
By the way your use of laughing Icons to represent your intelligence tells me you have not now or ever cared about the WHY of anything.

So your ability to comprehend is now the basis for abiding by the electrical codes??

I'll be sure to remove that page about pre existing range circuits from my handbook and code book..after all who needs it.
Dude, I have been nothing but civil to you but you continue to try and drag me into the mud with you. Obviously I am sending the wrong message by ignoring the personal tone. This could have and should have been a peaceful discussuion ...but it is not, at least between us.


I have been sucking it up and taking your crap long enough. Maybe this will set us on the same path.

You are the classic internet tough guy....let me guess....about 5'6". Always felt that people didn't like you? Maybe you drink a little too much and it fuels your anger? There is a reason people don't like big mouthed punks. It's because you are a douchebag. You have a LOT to learn little man, you might want to start soon. If you were half the man I am, you would be one hell of a person.

Since you like the little guys so much --------->


If the original poster is still around, don't be concerned, be entertained. It's only a message board.
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Old 01-28-2008, 11:04 PM   #30
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Dude, I have been nothing but civil to you but you continue to try and drag me into the mud with you. Obviously I am sending the wrong message by ignoring the personal tone. This could have and should have been a peaceful discussuion ...but it is not, at least between us.


I have been sucking it up and taking your crap long enough. Maybe this will set us on the same path.

You are the classic internet tough guy....let me guess....about 5'6". Always felt that people didn't like you? Maybe you drink a little too much and it fuels your anger? There is a reason people don't like big mouthed punks. It's because you are a douchebag. You have a LOT to learn little man, you might want to start soon. If you were half the man I am, you would be one hell of a person.
Sir (or Ma'am), this is OUT of line. YOU are the one being unprofessional. We are giving you PLENTY of logical explanation, yet you continue to blow it off. If you even owned or have ever read a code book you'd know how stupid you are looking right now.

We could say the same about you, being the typical internet smart guy who knows better than hundred of experts and years of research. No, not me, but the guys who write the code and rules. Then when challenged you start calling others adolescent names.
If your feeling got hurt it is because the TRUTH hurts!

HAHAHA...YOU teach Stubbie something???????? HAHAHA
Now THAT right there just made my night! Thanks!

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