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nave 01-27-2008 11:48 AM

Range Outlet Receptical Wiring - PICS
 
3 Attachment(s)
My old range was hard wired directly into the electrical system and I am switching it to a plug. The house was built in 1984. The outlet has a black wire, a white wire, and a bare wire. I assume these are hot, neutral, and ground, like in a normal outlet. I bought a 3-prong receptacle but don't know how to wire it. My receptacle has 2 hot's, a neutral, and no ground (i think). Can someone help me with how to wire it?

Stubbie 01-27-2008 12:13 PM

Nave

Most free standing ranges are 120 volt in combination with 240 volt and require 2 hots and neutral plus a ground wire. Typically shown on the name plate as 120/240 volts.

If some cases if the supply cable is three wire you are allowed to use it. However your cable is not one of those unless your old range is 240 volt only. If your old range is 240 volt only you have the wrong receptacle.

Can you tell us if your range is one of those old 240 volt ranges or does it require 120 and 240 volts?

I am assuming here that you are not replacing the old range.

Speedy Petey 01-27-2008 12:14 PM

A) That is the wrong cable for a typical range circuit. That cable can supply a STRAIGHT 240v circuit, or a 120v circuit. It CANNOT supply the 120/240v circuit that a range requires. If it did before it was quite illegal and quite unsafe!
DO NOT sue this circuit for a standard free standing residential range.

B) That is COMPLETELY the wrong box for that receptacle. That is a fixture box, NOT a device box.

You need to run a new "3-wire" circuit to a new 4-prong range receptacle.

troubleseeker 01-27-2008 04:20 PM

I am not an electrician, nor do I play one on TV, but that needs to be rewired correctly. If that is not a DIY Saturday morning job, I don't know how it passed inspection. Follow the advice of Speedy Pete, call a licensed electrician and get it done to current code.

There is no fun in touching an appliance while bare footed and getting the crap knocked out of you (best case scenario) or being awakened at 2 am by a smoke alarm.

If you mess up a DIY plumbing job you get wet feet; mess up a DIY electrical job, and you get lots of easels of flowers, capiche?

nave 01-27-2008 06:36 PM

I am replacing the existing range with a new GE range. Specs available here: http://www.ajmadison.com/cgi-bin/ajmadison/JSP42.html

So it looks like I'll have to re-wire the whole thing. I have a contractor coming for some other work so I'll leave it alone and add it to his list. For extra charge I'm sure. Thanks for the warnings though. Happy I didn't just wire it up.

cheyenne 01-27-2008 06:46 PM

As several posters have said, the box you have is not the correct one. The plug you have is not the correct one for the branch circuit cable you show. What size breaker was feeding this wire? What is the name plate rating of your range (volts and amps/kilowatts)? You CAN use an existing three wire cable to feed a range if it has sufficient ampacity and meets the requirements of NEC 250.140 exceptions 1-4. One of those exceptions is the grounded conductor, in this case your bare copper wire, must be not smaller than #10 copper. Your's looks to be a # 12. You are looking at a re-wire to be safe and legal. Today's ranges use the neutral and tap one leg of the 240 volts in a four wire cable for control boards, control transformers and of course the light bulb. If your cable was legal, the equipment ground and the grounded conductor(neutral) of the range would bond at the range connection point (ususally a strap) and be carried back to the panel on the ground(bare wire) in your cable. Get a professional to help you out. You mess up plumbing you get wet, you mess up electrical, you can get killed.

220/221 01-27-2008 06:46 PM

Sorry guys.

You are NOT required to run a new circuit :no:

250-140


Ranges USED to only require a 3 wire circuit with ground.

The old set up used black/hot, white/hot, bare ground/(possibly neutral)

You can replace ranges/dryers without the 4 wire circuit that is now required.:yes:

You will need to change the box though. 2 gang plastic will work nicely.

Black and white wires to the top terminals (farthest from your thumb) ground to the bottom (by your thumb) You will notice that the ground terminal has a strap built in that connects to the metal part of the device.

nave 01-27-2008 06:55 PM

I was planning on installing a new box too. So are you saying that I can wire the black (hot) & white (hot) to the two hot connections on my plug and the bare ground to the neutral?

I'll ask my contractor regardless.

This is what the specs are on the new range:

Technical Details
Oven Wattage: 3600
Amps: 40
Voltage: 240/208 Volts

cheyenne 01-27-2008 07:10 PM

You could IF your wire was legal. It is not.

Speedy Petey 01-27-2008 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 220/221 (Post 92653)
Ranges USED to only require a 3 wire circuit with ground.

The old set up used black/hot, white/hot, bare ground/(possibly neutral)

NO, NO, NO!

Ranges USED to have circuits with no GROUND. The NEUTRAL served as the ground. This is why you see the ground wire connected to the neutral of the circuit in older ranges and dryers.

A bare copper wire like the one see in that NM cable CAN NOT, repeat NOT,and NEVER could, carry circuit current.
In the installation as shown it will most definitely carry current.

Here is the NEC Handbook commentary following 250.140:

Quote:

The exception to 250.140 applies only to existing branch circuits supplying the appliances specified in 250.140. The grounded conductor (neutral) of newly installed branch circuits supplying ranges and clothes dryers is no longer permitted to be used for grounding the non–current-carrying metal parts of the appliances. Branch circuits installed for new appliance installations are required to provide an equipment grounding conductor sized in accordance with 250.122 for grounding the non–current-carrying metal parts.
Caution should be exercised to ensure that new appliances connected to an existing branch circuit are properly grounded. An older appliance connected to a new branch circuit must have its 3-wire cord and plug replaced with a 4-conductor cord, with one of those conductors being an equipment grounding conductor. The bonding jumper between the neutral and the frame of the appliance must be removed. Where a new range or clothes dryer is connected to an existing branch circuit without an equipment grounding conductor, in which the neutral conductor is used for grounding the appliance frame, it must be ensured that a bonding jumper is in place between the neutral terminal of the appliance and the frame of the appliance.
The grounded circuit conductor of an existing branch circuit is still permitted to be used to ground the frame of an electric range, wall-mounted oven, or counter-mounted cooking unit, provided all four conditions of 250.140, Exception, are met. In addition, a revision in this provision for the 2005 Code permits application of the exception only where the existing branch-circuit wiring method does not provide an equipment grounding conductor. There are many existing branch circuits in which nonmetallic sheath cable with three insulated circuit conductors and a bare equipment grounding conductor was used to supply a range or clothes dryer. The bare equipment grounding conductor was simply not used because it was permitted to ground the equipment with the insulated neutral conductor of the NM cable. This ``extra'' conductor was on account of the fact that the bare conductor in a Type NM cable is to be used only as an equipment grounding conductor and cannot be used as a grounded (neutral) conductor in the same manner as is permitted for an uninsulated conductor in the service entrance.
In addition to grounding the frame of the range or clothes dryer, the grounded circuit conductor of these existing branch circuits is also permitted to be used to ground any junction boxes in the circuit supplying the appliance, and a 3-wire pigtail and range receptacle are permitted to be used.
Prior to the 1996 Code, use of the grounded circuit conductor as a grounding conductor was permitted for all installations. In many instances, the wiring method was service-entrance cable with an uninsulated neutral conductor covered by the cable jacket. Where Type SE cable was used to supply ranges and dryers, the branch circuit was required to originate at the service equipment to avoid neutral current from downstream panelboards on metal objects, such as pipes or ducts.

Speedy Petey 01-27-2008 07:15 PM

You can't simply pick and choose what you want to apply. ALL the conditions of the exception in 250.140 MUST be met.

250.140 Frames of Ranges and Clothes Dryers
Frames of electric ranges, wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted cooking units, clothes dryers, and outlet or junction boxes that are part of the circuit for these appliances shall be grounded in the manner specified by 250.134 or 250.138.

Exception: For existing branch circuit installations only where an equipment grounding conductor is not present in the outlet or junction box, the frames of electric ranges, wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted cooking units, clothes dryers, and outlet or junction boxes that are part of the circuit for these appliances shall be permitted to be grounded to the grounded circuit conductor if all the following conditions are met.
(1) The supply circuit is 120/240-volt, single-phase, 3-wire; or 208Y/120-volt derived from a 3-phase, 4-wire, wye-connected system.
(2) The grounded conductor is not smaller than 10 AWG copper or 8 AWG aluminum.
(3) The grounded conductor is insulated, or the grounded conductor is uninsulated and part of a Type SE service-entrance cable and the branch circuit originates at the service equipment.
(4) Grounding contacts of receptacles furnished as part of the equipment are bonded to the equipment.



In red above: "grounded to the grounded circuit conductor".
In plain English: Grounded to the neutral.
This grounded conductor MUST be either insulated or part of an SE cable.

cheyenne 01-27-2008 07:24 PM

Speedy is right relative to this cable because it is NM. If the bare(uninsulated) conductor were part of a three wire SE cable, and it met ampacity requirements he most definetly could use it. Thanks for the clarification, Speedy.

220/221 01-27-2008 08:15 PM

No no no. Speedy is wrong.


Quote:

Ranges USED to have circuits with no GROUND. The NEUTRAL served as the ground. This is why you see the ground wire connected to the neutral of the circuit in older ranges and dryers
Nope.


Ranges USED to have circuits with no NEUTRAL. The GROUND served as the neutral. This is why you see the neutral wire connected to the ground of the circuit in older ranges and dryers.


(3) The grounded conductor is insulated, or the grounded conductor is uninsulated and part of a Type SE service-entrance cable and the branch circuit originates at the service equipment.


The only difference between NM and SE is that the BARE conductor is wrapped around the insulated conductors in the SE. It lays paralell in the NM. That is the only difference.

Worst case it's a technical issue, not a real life issue. It ALWAYS passes inspection here.

If I HAD to argue it, I say it was a groundING conductor.

Quote:

So are you saying that I can wire the black (hot) & white (hot) to the two hot connections on my plug and the bare ground to the neutral?



Exactly. You are supposed to "identify" the white conductor as a "hot". Black tape will work.

junkcollector 01-27-2008 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 220/221 (Post 92684)
It ALWAYS passes inspection here.

It would never fly here. The only way it would be compliant is if the range was 240 only (2 hots and ground) NM with only 2 insulated wires can either power 120 OR 240. Not both.

I looked at a job the other day where a subpanel was running off a 10/2 cable. The Black was hot, The white was hot, and the ground was neutral / ground. Never did it see the light of an inspector's flashlight. I don't see a difference between that and this.

Speedy Petey 01-27-2008 08:29 PM

I CANNOT believe you are saying this. Please tell me you are kidding.
You would honestly let a bare ground from an NM cable carry circuit current??????

Did you not read the code sections DIRECTLY quoted above?

He is the handbook commentary again. Just the first paragraph. That's all that's needed:
Quote:

The exception to 250.140 applies only to existing branch circuits supplying the appliances specified in 250.140. The grounded conductor (neutral) of newly installed branch circuits supplying ranges and clothes dryers is no longer permitted to be used for grounding the non–current-carrying metal parts of the appliances. Branch circuits installed for new appliance installations are required to provide an equipment grounding conductor sized in accordance with 250.122 for grounding the non–current-carrying metal parts.

I don't know how this can be ANY clearer. The NEUTRAL is no longer permitted to be used for grounding.


Nave, PLEASE ignore ANYTHING 220/221 is saying in this thread!


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