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Old 02-14-2012, 12:56 PM   #1
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Putting in foundation - ufer question


So, last year I did a 200A upgrade from 100A and moved the service entrance, and along with that I upgraded the grounding system to 2 new 8' grounding rods and new bonding to the water and gas pipes.

Later this year, I will be having a new foundation put in (I have no foundation). Another thread got me to thinking about whether I need to connect the rebar in the new foundation work to my grounding system...

So my questions are:
1) Given that I have the 2 ground rods and the metal pipes are bonded, when I have the new foundation poured, does code REQUIRE that I connect to the rebar?
2) Is there any reason not to do so?

I'm assuming that it'd be prudent to have it connected even if it isn't required, but I just want to understand for my own intellectual curiousity. The foundation is not going to be a DIY project and I'm sure that the contractor I'll be using is probably already aware of it if it is required.

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Old 02-14-2012, 01:01 PM   #2
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Putting in foundation - ufer question


This is only done when building a pool.
Why would you think it's good idea to do this and what is there to gain by doing it?
Just trying to figure out the logic.

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Old 02-14-2012, 01:04 PM   #3
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Putting in foundation - ufer question


Well... Because I'm of the assumption that the more contact you have with earth for the grounding system, the better, so it can't hurt to do this while the opportunity exists.
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Old 02-14-2012, 01:36 PM   #4
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Putting in foundation - ufer question


Nothing wrong with doing it properly, since the code is only the minimum to keep a person legal.

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Old 02-14-2012, 01:45 PM   #5
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Putting in foundation - ufer question


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Originally Posted by joecaption View Post
This is only done when building a pool.
Why would you think it's good idea to do this and what is there to gain by doing it?
Just trying to figure out the logic.
You don't use ufer grounds on all new construction? Our inspector won't except ground rods on new construction
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Old 02-14-2012, 02:05 PM   #6
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Putting in foundation - ufer question


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Originally Posted by jimmy21 View Post
You don't use ufer grounds on all new construction? Our inspector won't except ground rods on new construction
“You don't use ufer grounds on all new construction?”
“Our inspector won't except ground rods on new construction”
Explain, Please

Writer’s information is for discussion purpose only and should be confirmed by an independent source.
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Old 02-14-2012, 02:24 PM   #7
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Putting in foundation - ufer question


Rebar needs to be bonded with the equipment/service ground on new construction
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Old 02-14-2012, 05:57 PM   #8
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Putting in foundation - ufer question


Quote:
Originally Posted by WillK View Post
So, last year I did a 200A upgrade from 100A and moved the service entrance, and along with that I upgraded the grounding system to 2 new 8' grounding rods and new bonding to the water and gas pipes.

Later this year, I will be having a new foundation put in (I have no foundation). Another thread got me to thinking about whether I need to connect the rebar in the new foundation work to my grounding system...

So my questions are:
1) Given that I have the 2 ground rods and the metal pipes are bonded, when I have the new foundation poured, does code REQUIRE that I connect to the rebar?
2) Is there any reason not to do so?

I'm assuming that it'd be prudent to have it connected even if it isn't required, but I just want to understand for my own intellectual curiousity. The foundation is not going to be a DIY project and I'm sure that the contractor I'll be using is probably already aware of it if it is required.
It would not be rquired as the ufer was not available when the service was installed. If easily done, it would certainly enhance your grounding electrode system.
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Old 02-14-2012, 09:57 PM   #9
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Putting in foundation - ufer question


IIRC the wording has changed from when available to where present. I had an inspector tell me if there was rebar in the concrete and there was no connection someone was going to be making a connection to it even if it meant chipping the concrete to find the rebar.
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Old 02-15-2012, 11:54 PM   #10
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Putting in foundation - ufer question


If I might ask a stupid question, where do you buy the ufer concrete as I cannot find anything online?

Also, is there any truth to ufer grounds being susceptible to severe damage with a lightning strike due to moisture retention, as several sites claim?

I eventually came across a site that seemed definitive on the subject and refuted that notion as nothing but unproven hearsay. It noted there was no real world evidence of that and as all new commercial construction requires foundations as such with never a reported issue....

I don't mean to still the OP's thread but had considered installing one myself.
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Old 02-16-2012, 12:17 AM   #11
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Putting in foundation - ufer question


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If I might ask a stupid question, where do you buy the ufer concrete as I cannot find anything online?

Also, is there any truth to ufer grounds being susceptible to severe damage with a lightning strike due to moisture retention, as several sites claim?

I eventually came across a site that seemed definitive on the subject and refuted that notion as nothing but unproven hearsay. It noted there was no real world evidence of that and as all new commercial construction requires foundations as such with never a reported issue....

I don't mean to still the OP's thread but had considered installing one myself.
"ufer concrete"? It's just concrete.

An Ufer ground has been found to be the best ground you can have. Do a search on Ufer...the guy came up with it I think just before WWII....but it's only recently that it has really caught on.

In the real world...concrete is actually a pretty good conductor...especially when it's a large surface.

Two basic ways to do it....tie all the rebar together and run a wire from it to your panel.....or, bury a 20' #4 copper wire in the ground and connect that your panel.....

Or do like I did...run a #4 copper wire about 2" from the bottom of the not yet poured foundation....and connect both the rebar and copper wire to your panel...

As for lightning strikes? It will blow the wire going to the concrete before it does any damage...

So do the ufer....it means not having to worry about it again....
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Old 02-16-2012, 01:15 AM   #12
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Putting in foundation - ufer question


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Originally Posted by WillK View Post
Well... Because I'm of the assumption that the more contact you have with earth for the grounding system, the better, so it can't hurt to do this while the opportunity exists.
Your of the correct assumption. Have them stub out the rebar somewhere close to the panel. Connect your grounding electrode conductor to it with a rebar clamp rated for direct burial then run it back to your service panel and land it on the neutral bar.

http://ecmweb.com/grounding/electric..._vs_bonding_6/
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Old 02-16-2012, 06:58 AM   #13
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Putting in foundation - ufer question


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph III View Post
Also, is there any truth to ufer grounds being susceptible to severe damage with a lightning strike due to moisture retention, as several sites claim?
I installed a 8'x8'x4' base for a self supporting tower and the manufacture didn't want the J-bolts which went almost to the bottom of the pad touching any of the rebar because of this concern. They also wanted all three legs grounded with 8' rods.

Now, this was about 15 years ago so things may have changed but I just did what they asked and I wasn't on the net back then to do any research. Of course a lightning strike would have a good chance of going into the concrete via the J-bolts so who knows??? Just covering their butts I guess.


Putting in foundation - ufer question-base.jpg



Putting in foundation - ufer question-1-ground-rod.jpg

Last edited by zappa; 02-16-2012 at 08:39 AM.
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Old 02-16-2012, 09:20 AM   #14
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Putting in foundation - ufer question


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"ufer concrete"? It's just concrete.

An Ufer ground has been found to be the best ground you can have. Do a search on Ufer...the guy came up with it I think just before WWII....but it's only recently that it has really caught on.

...

So do the ufer....it means not having to worry about it again....
I haven't heard of this Ufer ground before. Can it be as simple as having one leg of the rebar bent to protrude from the concrete wall near the panel (before pouring concrete of course) and then bonding a copper ground wire to the steel stub with a bronze clamp?
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Old 02-16-2012, 09:37 AM   #15
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Putting in foundation - ufer question


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I haven't heard of this Ufer ground before. Can it be as simple as having one leg of the rebar bent to protrude from the concrete wall near the panel (before pouring concrete of course) and then bonding a copper ground wire to the steel stub with a bronze clamp?
I don't know how its done In he rest of the country but around here the rebar is bent up under the panel and after its framed up connected to with copper wire and a clamp. Exactly as you described.

There are a few rules to connecting the rebar. It must be a continuous piece and in contact with the concrete for 10' or something and tied to the other rebar. Not sure exactly, the concrete company does this part

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