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Putting electrical fixtures in a shallow wall.

10K views 33 replies 9 participants last post by  jrclen 
#1 ·
This customer has gutted a bedroom. It is an old house with plaster and lath. One of the walls has the studs turned flat so it is actually only 2" deep. One side of the wall is open. Can I legally run wires safely in that wall. I have to come down from the attic to run the wires. It's a no weight bearing junk wall. I would tear it out and replace it with a new wall. I am concerned with drywall screws or picture hanging hitting the wire. I found knob, and tube wires cut off, and plastered in the wall. Yes they were hot.
 
#2 ·
No. My house is the exact same way. A standard 18CI box physically wont fit, and a shallow metal box is only good if you are only running 1 cable to each box because of fill. On top of that, with the stud being 2" (i am assuming rough cut, right?) you cannot achieve the 1 1/4" back from finished surface.

I have seen guys double up the studs, or use 1" furring strips to bring it out just enough to achieve 1 1/4". It would be a good idea to use metal protection plates, too.
 
#4 ·
No. My house is the exact same way. A standard 18CI box physically wont fit, and a shallow metal box is only good if you are only running 1 cable to each box because of fill.
Whats wrong with a 4"sq box and a plaster ring?

On top of that, with the stud being 2" (i am assuming rough cut, right?) you cannot achieve the 1 1/4" back from finished surface.
Who said you needed to be 1 1/4 from the finished surface? If your going to post information, at least find the information in the NEC first... and stop shooting from the hip....


I have seen guys double up the studs, or use 1" furring strips to bring it out just enough to achieve 1 1/4". It would be a good idea to use metal protection plates, too.
 
#23 ·
The way I have handled this in the past is to tear out the wall and frame it with 2x4's. The wall is junk, the plaster is cracked, and loose but the customer won't budge. It has hot water baseboards on both sides that I would have to move. The dam wall is only 11 ft long, and hanging buy a piece of one by. I wasn't sure I could run romex in EMT. I told the customer I was going to run some ideas by other electricians to find the safest/economical way to do this. I'm sorry I assumed this was a site to ask questions.
 
#24 ·
Yes, Robert, this site is to ask questions. It's just that some folks are a little uneasy with the fact that you are doing CONTRACTING work for money, when in fact you are not an electrician. It is one thing to be a DIYer on your own home. It is quite another thing to sell your work without the proper qualifications and licensing and insurance.

But, I want you to do it in the safest way possible for the unsuspecting homeowner. So, yes, you can sleeve your romex in EMT. Or IMC, or rigid, or sch. 80 PVC. Carlon also makes a plastic single gang box just for shallow walls that has the capacity for more than a single cable. You can find it at Home Ripoff or Blowes. It is shallow with a side jut that makes up the volume.

Be Safe.

InPhase277
 
#25 · (Edited)
I have blanket liability insurance for $1,000,000. As long as the inspector passes my work, and buy the way I have never failed an inspection. I don't really care what anyone thinks. ALL OF MY WORK IS INSPECTED. Why do you guys always assume the worst. Do you have personal insurance. A Judge, and Jury could come after you if you did something stupid. Even if the company you work for has insurance..... There is more than one way to skin a cat.
 
#26 ·
Why so defensive, Robert? I just want you and your customers to be safe. Basically, think about it like this. You are performing work that the rest of us have to be licensed for and have years of training and Code beat into our heads to do. You on the other hand, are doing the same jobs, while apparently lacking the basic knowledge of where to look for the answers in the Code book. Like I said, there is a world of difference between a DIYer hacking his own stuff together, and a handyman charging money to hack someone else's stuff together.

I too have insurance, to "perform electrical wiring within buildings". Guess how much they would pay if I built a deck and it collapsed and killed someone?

InPhase277
 
#27 · (Edited)
You guys, and your arguing confuse me when it comes to code. Also most of the jobs I do you wouldn't touch. That is the way it is here in New York. I do have, and read the 2005 code book, and the 2008 changes. When you guys get going on code I look stuff up to see it. In New York or my area we don't need a license just an inspector. I don't need to study anything over 220/240 or worry about commercial electric or 3 phase, I will NEVER touch it. My insurance covers from dog bites to burning down someones house. Decks, roofs, windows, plumbing, septic systems, paint spilled on a carpet, or what ever. I'm not defensive just curious why you guys are. I do custom slaughtering, and butchering also.
 
#28 ·
I think it is telling that you sent me a nasty private message while not allowing private message responses. Coming to a Do It Yourself site to ask real electricians such basic questions, and then selling yourself and your lack of knowledge to an unsuspecting public, is fraudulent. You sir, are a hack. :furious:
 
#29 ·
Hate to dog pile on at this point but I have a few quick questions.

Why do people become certified electricians? I assume it is so they can legally do electrical work. Is there a penalty for practicing electricity without a license?
 
#30 ·
It depends on what the laws are in your area governing licensing. But generally, you can be ordered to cease and desist unlicensed electrical work, this first time. Then you may get a fine. If you cause a fire or kill someone due to your faulty unlicensed work, then you could serve time in jail.

We have licenses because bad electrical wiring causes people to die in horrible ways. The governments of our states have enacted laws saying that only qualified people should install and repair electrical systems and equipment. A license "proves" the qualification.

InPhase277
 
#31 · (Edited)
Well it's rather long answer, but applies to all trades equally IMO. First you need to know what the heck your doing and with electrical doubly so. Passing tests and getting licensed doesn't necessarily make you a good electrician. In generally the road to that licensing does mean you have had the necessary training and on job work to give you the knowledge to safely do work for hire on others property. I'm actually not aware of any place like Robert says that allows you to do electrical work for hire as your own contractor without licensing. Now notice I said as your own contractor. There are lots of states and localities that allow you to work for a licensed contractor without you yourself being licensed. Generally though if you are connecting wires to devices and equipment for hire you are required licensing and most contractors want you licensed for that capacity. Not always the case but preferred. When I say not always the case there are lots of self employed remodelers that do electrical work without permit or inspection. This includes handymen and drywallers and roughin workers, plumbers, one man HVAC techs, friends, neighbors etc... In residential this is very common. Not legal but common. It can be common in commercial as maintenace men are jacks of all trades but they are not doing hired work for someone else. So it isn't like it never happens. I'm not sure however how you can sign off on inspected work that you hired yourself out for as Robert said. Generally you must list your license # and expirations in my area when you get electrical permits. As for penalities yes if the local codes authority discovers one of your unpermitted jobs they can put a stop work notice on your job site. If they find your doing work that requires licensing and permits then your job can be shut down and you may face fines and prosecution.
 
#33 ·
Well it's rather long answer, but applies to all trades equally IMO. First you need to know what the heck your doing and with electrical doubly so. Passing tests and getting licensed doesn't necessarily make you a good electrician. In generally the road to that licensing does mean you have had the necessary training and on job work to give you the knowledge to safely do work for hire on others property. I'm actually not aware of any place like Robert says that allows you to do electrical work for hire as your own contractor without licensing. Now notice I said as your own contractor. There are lots of states and localities that allow you to work for a licensed contractor without you yourself being licensed. Generally though if you are connecting wires to devices and equipment for hire you are required licensing and most contractors want you licensed for that capacity. Not always the case but preferred. When I say not always the case there are lots of self employed remodelers that do electrical work without permit or inspection. This includes handymen and drywallers and roughin workers, plumbers, one man HVAC techs, friends, neighbors etc... In residential this is very common. Not legal but common. It can be common in commercial as maintenace men are jacks of all trades but they are not doing hired work for someone else. So it isn't like it never happens. I'm not sure however how you can sign off on inspected work that you hired yourself out for as Robert said. Generally you must list your license # and expirations in my area when you get electrical permits. As for penalities yes if the local codes authority discovers one of your unpermitted jobs they can put a stop work notice on your job site. If they find your doing work that requires licensing and permits then your job can be shut down and you may face fines and prosecution.
In *alot* of NY State, you do NOT need to be licensed to perform electrical work for hire.
 
#32 · (Edited)
Permits

The permit is in the window where it should be, I am in constant contact with the building inspector, and the electrical inspector, and I do a bunch of work for a lawyer. I also work for 3 electricians, and I have never had a problem. The only work I do is residential, and I HAVE NEVER FAILED AN INSPECTION. I just came here to get some better ideas, and get you guys going. I have been to school on residential electric. I think it would be a waste of time to learn a bunch of commercial electric, and code I will never use. I'm not going to go to school so I can regurgitate a bunch of knowledge I will never use. 99% of the work I do is for poorer people that can't afford your inflated ego prices. I am 100% legal all of the time, and insured. (I lied I have worked on some commercial electric in Tennessee as a EH.) Everything here falls on the inspection as it should be. Does this mean that all electricians helpers are illegal, I don't think so..
 
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