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Old 05-23-2011, 01:36 PM   #16
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Proper way to splice wires


Nothing wrong with plastic boxes.

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Old 05-23-2011, 01:48 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Fred_ View Post
How can tape inside an electrical metal box cause a fire ? I thought fire were mostly due to wrong wire gage or junctions outside of metal/plastic boxes.
Loose wire joints can cause arcing. Arcing melts and burns things. I've worked on circuits before that have melted the wirenuts due to improper installation. That said, I still would never trust a joint made up solely with tape.

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Anyhow, I redid the taped junctions with wirenuts but some of the old stuff I often don't have enough loose wire to redo...
If you had enough free conductor to wrap them with tape, you have enough conductor to put a wirenut on.

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Another question, what do you guys think of plastic boxes ?
Nothing wrong with plastic boxes.
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Old 05-23-2011, 02:42 PM   #18
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Proper way to splice wires


The instructor at the local vocational school used to tell his class that wire nuts were invented specifically to melt in the event of an overcurrent issue. He even had some sort of demonstation he would set up to show this. He told them that the manufactures made wire nuts this way so that bad portions of circuits would dis-connect themselves from the rest of a circuit! He taught this for at least 4 years, and there were dozens, if not hundreds of students, some of whom are still around who believed him. He also advocated punching every possible knock-out from boxes where wire nuts were used to let them run cooler and to give a way for smoke to be disipated! The students who got into professional electrical firms -- ones who went through inspections and subject to peer reviews of their work quickly learned that this was not so. But those who became handymen, worked un-supervised, and who's work was never inspected needed a long time to learn this method of installation is not generally acceptable.

This same teacher insisted that "Every connection", be it wire-nut, push-in (without screw clamp), screw clamp, wrap around screw, etc. required "exactly" 9/16 inches of insulation removed from the wire. He told his students to "ignore" wire strip indicators on receptacles, etc. since all are based on "exactly" 9/16 inchs of insulation being stripped!

This was in the 1980-1985 period. How this "Electrical Professional" got his job teaching high-school and night school students is still beyond me.
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Old 05-23-2011, 02:50 PM   #19
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Proper way to splice wires


I have occationally used a different type of connector when wires are very short. I don't know now if what I have done is legal. I don't know what they are called, but they are a hollow tube like thing with a "set screw" in the side. They, like wirenuts are rated for how many wires can be used, etc. To use them you put the wires into the tube, then screw down on the "set screw" until they are tight. THen you screw a plastic insulating cap over the wire assembly. Because there is no twisting, wires can be extremely short and a connection still made.
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Old 05-23-2011, 03:24 PM   #20
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Proper way to splice wires


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Originally Posted by Perry401 View Post
The instructor at the local vocational school used to tell his class that wire nuts were invented specifically to melt in the event of an overcurrent issue. He even had some sort of demonstation he would set up to show this. He told them that the manufactures made wire nuts this way so that bad portions of circuits would dis-connect themselves from the rest of a circuit! He taught this for at least 4 years, and there were dozens, if not hundreds of students, some of whom are still around who believed him. He also advocated punching every possible knock-out from boxes where wire nuts were used to let them run cooler and to give a way for smoke to be disipated! The students who got into professional electrical firms -- ones who went through inspections and subject to peer reviews of their work quickly learned that this was not so. But those who became handymen, worked un-supervised, and who's work was never inspected needed a long time to learn this method of installation is not generally acceptable.

This same teacher insisted that "Every connection", be it wire-nut, push-in (without screw clamp), screw clamp, wrap around screw, etc. required "exactly" 9/16 inches of insulation removed from the wire. He told his students to "ignore" wire strip indicators on receptacles, etc. since all are based on "exactly" 9/16 inchs of insulation being stripped!

This was in the 1980-1985 period. How this "Electrical Professional" got his job teaching high-school and night school students is still beyond me.
That is hilarious only because I know better. I suspect Captain Morgan was one of his best friends?
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Old 05-23-2011, 06:00 PM   #21
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Proper way to splice wires


I agree with the last post....that is hilarious! and he probably insists on exactly! 9/16 of collins mix to 42/16 of his Capt Morgan.

I would change every single taped connector (even soldered) to wire nuts and tape....yesterday!

I am just the overcautious type.....but then I never caused anything to burn down, killed anyone by neglect, or had to submit a claim on my business liability, or vehicle business liability insurance.

I really like the plastic boxes too....but it sure is hard pounding those frame nails into metal studs.

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Old 05-23-2011, 07:09 PM   #22
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Proper way to splice wires


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Are you sure your "electrician" didn't misunderstand your question? I have seen electrical tape in junction boxes many times, but it was always wrapped around the wire nuts. Why, I don't know.
I've done this on occasion. Mainly as extra insurance against the nut vibrating loose. Its not a code requirement, but code is MINIMUM requirement and being extra careful, is OK!
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Old 05-23-2011, 07:27 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Perry401 View Post
I have occationally used a different type of connector when wires are very short. I don't know now if what I have done is legal. I don't know what they are called, but they are a hollow tube like thing with a "set screw" in the side. They, like wirenuts are rated for how many wires can be used, etc. To use them you put the wires into the tube, then screw down on the "set screw" until they are tight. THen you screw a plastic insulating cap over the wire assembly. Because there is no twisting, wires can be extremely short and a connection still made.
These are MARR connectors and where one of the first mechanical wire connectors. When the MARR people came out with the twist connectors (1950?) the name they used was MARETTE (sp?) Both types are are still available today.
The original Marr connector had a slotted set screw and many a time I cut my finger when the screw driver slipped and was rammed into my finger. I had occasion to buy some of these recently and they now come with a square head screw driver slot. Too bad they didn't think of that 60 years ago.
In all my career in the electrical trade, I would dare to say that all the failed electrical connections that I encountered, were from these connectors. I think that they should be banned.
One point that I would like to say. The ones that I bought were bot used for electrical connections. I needed to splice some aircraft cable, used for an awning and they worked well for this purpose.
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Old 05-23-2011, 07:29 PM   #24
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Double post ????
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Old 05-23-2011, 08:04 PM   #25
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Proper way to splice wires


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred_ View Post
How can tape inside an electrical metal box cause a fire ? I thought fire were mostly due to wrong wire gage or junctions outside of metal/plastic boxes.
Anyhow, I redid the taped junctions with wirenuts but some of the old stuff I often don't have enough loose wire to redo...
I will have him do the inspection only, I will have an easier time The work I do myself anyway.

Another question, what do you guys think of plastic boxes ?
Loose connections are called high resistance connections and will get hot enough to start a fire. Boxes, especially metal boxes are designed to keep the fire in the box. Plastic boxes while compliant and used universally are acceptable and constructed of fire resistant materials.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perry401 View Post
The instructor at the local vocational school used to tell his class that wire nuts were invented specifically to melt in the event of an overcurrent issue. He even had some sort of demonstation he would set up to show this. He told them that the manufactures made wire nuts this way so that bad portions of circuits would dis-connect themselves from the rest of a circuit! He taught this for at least 4 years, and there were dozens, if not hundreds of students, some of whom are still around who believed him. He also advocated punching every possible knock-out from boxes where wire nuts were used to let them run cooler and to give a way for smoke to be disipated! The students who got into professional electrical firms -- ones who went through inspections and subject to peer reviews of their work quickly learned that this was not so. But those who became handymen, worked un-supervised, and who's work was never inspected needed a long time to learn this method of installation is not generally acceptable.

This same teacher insisted that "Every connection", be it wire-nut, push-in (without screw clamp), screw clamp, wrap around screw, etc. required "exactly" 9/16 inches of insulation removed from the wire. He told his students to "ignore" wire strip indicators on receptacles, etc. since all are based on "exactly" 9/16 inchs of insulation being stripped!

This was in the 1980-1985 period. How this "Electrical Professional" got his job teaching high-school and night school students is still beyond me.
He should have been shot at high noon. We do not need people like this teaching anyone anything. I hope this was just a joke and this was not a true story?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perry401 View Post
I have occasionally used a different type of connector when wires are very short. I don't know now if what I have done is legal. I don't know what they are called, but they are a hollow tube like thing with a "set screw" in the side. They, like wirenuts are rated for how many wires can be used, etc. To use them you put the wires into the tube, then screw down on the "set screw" until they are tight. THen you screw a plastic insulating cap over the wire assembly. Because there is no twisting, wires can be extremely short and a connection still made.
Any LISTED connector is compliant. Tape is NOT a listed (UL) connector and never has been.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildie View Post
I've done this on occasion. Mainly as extra insurance against the nut vibrating loose. Its not a code requirement, but code is MINIMUM requirement and being extra careful, is OK!
Wirenuts were invented to allow connections to be made without tape and solder. Why reinvent the wheel? The use of tape over wirenuts is acceptable but a waste of time and material. It also screams "I have no idea what I am doing".
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Old 05-23-2011, 08:33 PM   #26
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Proper way to splice wires


You're right with wire nuts properly installed on wire does not require any electrical tape, but when you're providing advice to a DIY'r why not suggest just a little over safeness? I hardly ever use tape myself unless there is a good reason to do so and at times there are. A person that is on here and asking questions may not know there are different size wire nuts to wire gauge and can use too small or too large a nut depending. The one thing about using tape, is that wire nut is definitely not coming off until it's supposed to.

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Old 05-23-2011, 08:38 PM   #27
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While on the subject of wire nuts and other wire fasteners: What about the "Wago" brand wiring connectors? I've been using them lately and really like them. No twisting of the wires, no sore fingers after many wire nuts, just raise the clamp, push the wire in and close the clamp. These seem really easy to re-use also.
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Old 05-23-2011, 11:01 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by J. V. View Post
Loose connections are called high resistance connections and will get hot enough to start a fire. Boxes, especially metal boxes are designed to keep the fire in the box. Plastic boxes while compliant and used universally are acceptable and constructed of fire resistant materials.



He should have been shot at high noon. We do not need people like this teaching anyone anything. I hope this was just a joke and this was not a true story?



Any LISTED connector is compliant. Tape is NOT a listed (UL) connector and never has been.



Wirenuts were invented to allow connections to be made without tape and solder. Why reinvent the wheel? The use of tape over wirenuts is acceptable but a waste of time and material. It also screams "I have no idea what I am doing".
I have taped wire nuts on machinery that is subjected to continuous vibration because wire nuts do vibrate loose on occasion.
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Old 05-23-2011, 11:17 PM   #29
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Unless something is vibrating, i guess, tape doesn't do anything.

If a wirenut is on so loose that the tape DOES serve a purpose, it means it was not on tightly enough to begin with and there could be an arc inside the wirenut.

I used to do it too when i first started doing electrical work. I learned to properly put on wirenuts instead
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Old 05-24-2011, 09:51 AM   #30
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I learned to properly put on wirenuts instead
Then how many twists are required before applying the wire nut and does this apply to all brands?

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