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Old 03-22-2013, 08:50 PM   #46
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As already said by Jim, a manufacture cannot lessen any NEC requirement nor do they ever require you to do so, and as I stated many times before, any appliance that requires electricity will also state in the instructions that it MUST be installed to the NEC and local codes, if you refer to 210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personal of the NEC, you will see these requirements. it really is that simple.

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Old 03-22-2013, 08:56 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
Greg, the code specifically addresses receptacles in unfinished basements as requiring gfi protection. This is not about the appliance. It is about the location.
And again I know what the code states, but also what the manufacturer states about the Power Vent & On Demand units. It clearly states that they are not recommended or required to be plugged into a GFCI protected circuit.

So again, if you want to argue this, take it up with the manufacturers engineers and tell them they are stating incorrect information, and that you request that they pull their equipment off of the market, due to they are selling unsafe appliances.

If you think I am just pulling your leg, or bs'ing you, I have stated enough already where you need to look at the info I have posted, and personally I am going by what the code by my city, state, the manufacturer have stated, and my power vent water heater is staying connected as is.

Unless the NFPA, the manufacturer, my city or state states otherwise, it is as is, with no gfci protected circuit. Same goes for the furnace, since it is stated the same for it by the manufacturer, City, State code, and the NEC.
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Old 03-22-2013, 08:59 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by stickboy1375 View Post
As already said by Jim, a manufacture cannot lessen any NEC requirement nor do they ever require you to do so, and as I stated many times before, any appliance that requires electricity will also state in the instructions that it MUST be installed to the NEC and local codes, if you refer to 210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personal of the NEC, you will see these requirements. it really is that simple.
Of course, if you like Jim would go and read the manufacturer info, or contact their engineering department, they will state that they are not lessening or ignoring NEC requirements. They will though state that the equipment is not required to be connected to GFCI protection as I have already stated, unless local or state ordinance states otherwise, or as California and all other states codes state, that it must be gfci protected if located in an outdoor location.
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Old 03-22-2013, 09:21 PM   #49
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Greg, can you cite the CA code article you are referencing?
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Old 03-22-2013, 09:59 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by k_buz View Post
Greg, can you cite the CA code article you are referencing?
Why, can't you use a search engine like I did?

City of Calabasas code cite http://www.cityofcalabasas.com/Build...er-Heaters.pdf Also to let you know, that the equipment is covered under NEC Article 110.3(B).
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Old 03-22-2013, 10:14 PM   #51
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First of all, I wasn't on your case about this as I was actually (quietly) siding with you. I was silent on this particular issue because I believe you do have to go with the manufacturer specs even if they are less than code requires.

However, I can see the other side of the argument. Nothing says that this piece of equipment is required to be installed in a basement. So, since this is a cord and plug appliance, if it is installed in a (unfinished) basement, I could see the AHJ requiring a GFI.

Secondly, I did use a search engine, but I do not know the magic words you typed in to find one city in CA's requirements for TANKLESS water heaters. Unless I'm mistaken, tankless water heaters are a complete different type of water heater than a power vent water heater. The power vent water heaters I've installed look exactly like a typical tank style water heater with a electric exhaust vent on top. Tankless typically have the ability to be hardwired, and the power vent variety I am familiar with are not able to be hardwired.
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Old 03-22-2013, 10:32 PM   #52
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I just went through and played around with a variance of "Do ondemand water heaters require gfci protection", and "do power vent water heaters require a gfci protected circuit", etc.. It is kind of a hit or miss, due to the Boolean language that is used for the search.

The search engines are programmed of course to look for key words, just like when you are going to a library and using a card catalog look up on their computer system. You just have to play around to get the right combo to find enough hits that lead you to what you are looking for.

But everything that I looked up using different combos, came up with mostly the same sites, and none came up with anything that cited a requirement for Power vent or On Demand water heaters required to be gfci protected in a basement or garage, other than the hit I got last night on the City of Calabasas, that cited the requirement as only being outside.

I can also see the argument that because it is a plug in device in an outlet, that there are those that automatically want it to be plugged into a gfci protected outlet, but after finding the key piece that they are covered under 110.3(b), that pretty much closes this argument among the others trying to look at the glass is half full, vs. actually seeing the big picture.

I also understand that locals can trump what the manufacturer states in their documentation, so that is why the manufacturers always state no matter what the appliance is, to check with your local codes. Mine say nothing about On Demand or Power Vent water heaters being on a gfci protected outlet, let alone a dedicated outlet, so that is why it is on the same 20 amp circuit as my furnace, because total amperage of the two together, does not exceed the rating of the circuit breaker. Also since my plumber is licensed for HVAC/Plumbing/Gas/Electrical, he also made the final say as to what I needed to do before he came to plumb in the new unit.

If it did, I would have pulled a dedicated run of 14/2 for the water heater, or since I have about 50' of 12/2 on my shelf that I keep excess Romex, MC, THHN/THWN spools on, would have just used the 12/2 Romex for the run.
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Old 03-22-2013, 10:35 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by k_buz View Post
The power vent water heaters I've installed look exactly like a typical tank style water heater with a electric exhaust vent on top. Tankless typically have the ability to be hardwired, and the power vent variety I am familiar with are not able to be hardwired.
I actually found a commercial grade/heavy duty that can be hardwired, but requires MC for the connection between it and the box, but I did not want to spend that much on a unit that is going in our home. If it was a rental property if I owned one, then yes I probably would have spent that much on one.

My Brother-In-Law has a On Demand, on Well Water, and I can tell you that it takes longer for it to come up to proper temp, compared to the tank unit that we had before that was 14 years old, and same for the new unit that is only a couple of days old.
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Old 03-22-2013, 10:38 PM   #54
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nevermind
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Old 03-22-2013, 10:42 PM   #55
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IMO, if the unit didn't come with a cord and plug and you installed it in the basement, you would have to hardwire the unit. If it came with a cord and plug, you could install a single receptacle and not GFI protect it.
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Old 03-22-2013, 10:48 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by k_buz View Post
IMO, if the unit didn't come with a cord and plug and you installed it in the basement, you would have to hardwire the unit. If it came with a cord and plug, you could install a single receptacle and not GFI protect it.
And that is where the pointless argument with the others lie, that even I knew that, and that is why I did what I did. But also our area does not require even if it was on a duplex, that it does not need to be gfci protected in an unfinished basement, because it is covered under 110.3(b).
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Old 03-22-2013, 10:53 PM   #57
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You can say that as many times as you would like, but if I were the inspector, I'd fail your install if the cord wasn't factory installed or if you didn't install a single receptacle. Without a factory installed cord, you have the ability to hardwire the unit, thus complying with both the NEC and the manufacturer's specs.

I am done with this topic.
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Old 03-23-2013, 09:37 AM   #58
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Personally, if I was a manufacture, I would list as many requirements as possible to avoid any blame to my product, so it makes perfect sense to label GFCI protection as not recommend, these recommendations are written by lawyers, not engineers as Greg wants to believe.... Bottom line folks, if you have a receptacle in an unfinished basement, I don't carte what appliance you are going to plug into this receptacle, it does not matter, that receptacle must have GFCI protection.

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