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Old 03-21-2013, 05:47 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
...Now to turn things around, why don't Furnaces, boilers, humidifiers, air cleaners, electrostatic filter units required to have gfci, when in unfinished spaces or even afci protection in the home?

Cannot wait to see you try to come up with that answer, and come back with a reply on it....
Those other things are direct-wired, and as such do not require the use of cord-and-plug connection.

The issue that the Code attempts to solve is the existence of non-gfci protected outlets in unfinished basement areas. Exceptions were once made for specific outlets dedicated for specific pieces of equipment.

The problem is that folks tend to unplug those items and use those outlets for other things, or install power strips to enable those outlets for other uses. This is not the case with direct-wired utilization equipment such as furnaces, etc.

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Old 03-21-2013, 05:49 AM   #32
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There is no exception in the NEC to allow the receptacle not to have GFI protection because the instructions for a piece of equipment say not to install it on the GFI protected circuit.

Looks they created a piece of equipment that cannot be installed in an unfinished basement.
The work-around here is to build a "finished" room around the unit, thus making it in compliance....
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Old 03-21-2013, 07:45 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by kbsparky View Post
Those other things are direct-wired, and as such do not require the use of cord-and-plug connection.

The issue that the Code attempts to solve is the existence of non-gfci protected outlets in unfinished basement areas. Exceptions were once made for specific outlets dedicated for specific pieces of equipment.

The problem is that folks tend to unplug those items and use those outlets for other things, or install power strips to enable those outlets for other uses. This is not the case with direct-wired utilization equipment such as furnaces, etc.
I knew I could trust you. If others would go and do a little investigation, they would find that all states state the same thing that I pulled from the manuals, but with the little added exception in California's, that if the unit is outdoor for a OnDemand, said nothing about holding tank with a power vent, that is the only time you need the unit protected by a GFCI outlet.

Funny thing is, this argument has been going on for the past two years, and some of it is Jim from what you find, doing a search engine search, on other boards.
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Old 03-21-2013, 05:18 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
I knew I could trust you. If others would go and do a little investigation, they would find that all states state the same thing that I pulled from the manuals, but with the little added exception in California's, that if the unit is outdoor for a OnDemand, said nothing about holding tank with a power vent, that is the only time you need the unit protected by a GFCI outlet.

Funny thing is, this argument has been going on for the past two years, and some of it is Jim from what you find, doing a search engine search, on other boards.
The little sheep is lost again....
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Old 03-21-2013, 08:50 PM   #35
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No Stickboy, the only person that is lost is you. I know what the NEC is, also certified in the Navy, and pulled more hours in four years 24/7 365, doing electric on board ship, than you have done in what 10 maybe 15 years acting like you know everything. At least I have the gall to go look stuff up before stating stuff, such as in this topic as you have.

If the manufacturer stated that it requires a gfci protected outlet, it would state so in the documentation. Power Vent water heaters fall into the same category as dishwashers, furnaces, air cleaners for hvac, etc. Why, it is because the appliance is hard mounted and can not be moved.

If it was required to be gfci protected, so would dishwashers & disposals. But until NFPA decides differently, right now you do not need to protect Dishwashers, the power vent on water heaters, or ondemand water heaters, disposals with gfci protection.

Do believe that this case is closed, but I am sure that you will keep dragging it along like any other topic that you think you can smart off about a person, just because they can actually pull up facts, not spout off stuff like you do, because you do not investigate, and just go by something that someone who thought they knew what they were telling you was fact, which it is obvious from what you have stated on this topic is just your opinion, but I was able to pull fact from the manufacturer.
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Old 03-21-2013, 08:53 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
No Stickboy, the only person that is lost is you. I know what the NEC is, also certified in the Navy, and pulled more hours in four years 24/7 365, doing electric on board ship, than you have done in what 10 maybe 15 years acting like you know everything. At least I have the gall to go look stuff up before stating stuff, such as in this topic as you have.

If the manufacturer stated that it requires a gfci protected outlet, it would state so in the documentation. Power Vent water heaters fall into the same category as dishwashers, furnaces, air cleaners for hvac, etc. Why, it is because the appliance is hard mounted and can not be moved.

If it was required to be gfci protected, so would dishwashers & disposals. But until NFPA decides differently, right now you do not need to protect Dishwashers, the power vent on water heaters, or ondemand water heaters, disposals with gfci protection.

Do believe that this case is closed, but I am sure that you will keep dragging it along like any other topic that you think you can smart off about a person, just because they can actually pull up facts, not spout off stuff like you do, because you do not investigate, and just go by something that someone who thought they knew what they were telling you was fact, which it is obvious from what you have stated on this topic is just your opinion, but I was able to pull fact from the manufacturer.
Why do you think the manufacture overrides the NEC? and as I already stated, look at any manual that requires electricity, it will clearly state that is MUST be installed to the NEC and any local codes... seems to me you are lost again....

Keep on trolling... Im still waiting for when you realize that you are wrong again, you just change the scenario to make yourself look correct in the thread... that move you do always amuses me. Happy trails buckaroo....

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Old 03-22-2013, 02:01 PM   #37
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Old 03-22-2013, 04:34 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
No, looks like they have created a piece of equipment that does not require a GFCI per the specifications of the equipment. If you look at these units, the majority are now plastic casings on the OnDemand units, and the power vent on holding tank units are built out of plastic.

If you want to be combative with the manufacturers, take it up with their engineers. I am sure that they will come back and defeat your comment that you posted Jim.

If water heaters were never meant to be in basements, they would have never been installed there in the first place.

Now to turn things around, why don't Furnaces, boilers, humidifiers, air cleaners, electrostatic filter units required to have gfci, when in unfinished spaces or even afci protection in the home?

Cannot wait to see you try to come up with that answer, and come back with a reply on it.
All of that equipment is hard wired. The NEC addresses receptacles in unfinished areas needing GFI protection, not outlets.
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Old 03-22-2013, 04:50 PM   #39
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[QUOTE=DanS26;1141666].

I have been using a power vent WH for about 13 years. They work great for heating water fast, but they are noisy.[QUOTE]

Mine is pretty quiet. I can hear it if I am in the basement, but it is not objectionable.

I can't say I ever paid attention to them before. Are they usually loud?
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Old 03-22-2013, 05:37 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Port

All of that equipment is hard wired. The NEC addresses receptacles in unfinished areas needing GFI protection, not outlets.
The only time it would be hardwired if it is commericial equipment. If you go back to the two links I posted before, there is nothing in them about a requirement to be hardwired, and very clearly states that the manufacuterer requests that you do not plug the equipment into a gfci protected circuit.

Now if you go pull up California's code, they even state that the only time a OnDemand, power damper or Power Vent Water Heater needs to be on a gfci protected circuit, is when it is installed in an outdoor location.

The ynits I mentioned all fall under the same category as Dishwashers, garbage disposalls. Until NFPA changes the requirents, I am going by what the manufacturer states in their installation instructions, and what my local AHJ states, which is both stating the same, that they are not required to be on a gfci protected citcuit at this time, in an unfinished space.
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Old 03-22-2013, 07:27 PM   #41
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When then that would be a local amendment and is in conflict with the NEC.
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Old 03-22-2013, 07:41 PM   #42
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When then that would be a local amendment and is in conflict with the NEC.
Then you need to argue that with the manufacturer of these appliances. Again, if they stated that they needed GFCI protection, then it would be stated not only in the local AHJ rules, but also in the installation instructions of the appliance.

I think that I am done trying to argue a subject that you are not listening to the information, or looking into what I am trying to tell you. If you want to argue that what I am repeating directly from the manufacturer information that their engineers who also have cleared the appliance with not only the rules of the NEC, but also with the UL, then I guess everyone has been doing it wrong for over twenty years, and every one of these appliances have been installed incorrect from the beginning, even though the manufacturers & the local rules state otherwise.
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Old 03-22-2013, 07:58 PM   #43
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The manufacturer cannot override the NEC. They can exceed it but not lessen the requirements.

Going back to your equipment list you will not find that things like a furnace, water heater etc are listed for use with flex cord, nor do they meet the flex cord rules that allow for frequent exchange or for vibration isolation.
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Old 03-22-2013, 08:14 PM   #44
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The manufacturer cannot override the NEC. They can exceed it but not lessen the requirements.

Going back to your equipment list you will not find that things like a furnace, water heater etc are listed for use with flex cord, nor do they meet the flex cord rules that allow for frequent exchange or for vibration isolation.
As I have stated before, the manufacturer is not over riding the NEC. No where in the NEC, does it state that Power Vent water heaters are required for them to be protected by a GFCI outlet. Same goes for Disposals & Dish washers. So until NFPA changes that, the manufacturer will state what I have repeated from the instruction manuals for both Rheem's On Demand & Power vent units, that you are not required to have a GFCI protected circuit. And as California code, and other states state, that the only time it needs to be on a GFCI protected outlet, is in a outdoor location, not in a unfinished basement.

So again, go argue it with the manufacturer that they are incorrect in what they are putting in the information that comes with the Installer instructions.
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Old 03-22-2013, 08:20 PM   #45
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Greg, the code specifically addresses receptacles in unfinished basements as requiring gfi protection. This is not about the appliance. It is about the location.

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