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Old 03-20-2013, 09:30 AM   #16
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No, the location determines the need for GFI protection.

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Old 03-20-2013, 05:19 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by POWER STROKE
I am wanting to change out my old water heater and replace it with a new Power vent water heater. I just have one question is it good to run a 14/2 wire with a 15amp breaker with a GFCI or is better to run a 12/2 wire with a 20amp breaker with a GFCI. Thanks in advance for any help or input.
The manufacturer installation instructions will tell you amperage needed and thus wire sizing.

I have been using a power vent WH for about 13 years. They work great for heating water fast, but they are noisy. I finally put a timer on the electrical supply to shut down the system at night. There is difference of opinion on whether shutting down at night saves any energy. My opinion is that you would need a super insulated tank to realize any substantial savings.

They are also expensive, so if you are going to spend that kind of money get the one with the longest tank warranty. The tank will go first.
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Old 03-20-2013, 06:49 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by kbsparky View Post
They certainly can be flaky. Try testing `em after a bad lightning storm has blown through.

We get more bad GFI reports after such events.
Any electronic device can be destroyed in the event of a nearby lightning strike, I don't see how you can call something 'Flakey' because of that.
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Old 03-20-2013, 07:00 PM   #19
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Not so sure I like the set up of a gfi on my water heater vent. So the rare event my gfi would trip I now have no way to know to know my water heater is not venting properly.
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Old 03-20-2013, 07:04 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by mj12 View Post
Not so sure I like the set up of a gfi on my water heater vent. So the rare event my gfi would trip I now have no way to know to know my water heater is not venting properly.

You wont have a choice if it is plug and cord and installed in the required GFCI location, let me say this though, what if the breaker tripped inadvertently? What would be the difference? Besides, all the power vents come preinstalled with safety features that would prevent any issues.
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Old 03-20-2013, 07:27 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by mj12 View Post
Not so sure I like the set up of a gfi on my water heater vent. So the rare event my gfi would trip I now have no way to know to know my water heater is not venting properly.
You'll know it alright. Your water will be cold.

Those units won't operate without electric power. So if the GFI is tripped, the water won't get heated. Cold shower.
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Old 03-20-2013, 07:29 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by stickboy1375 View Post
Any electronic device can be destroyed in the event of a nearby lightning strike, I don't see how you can call something 'Flakey' because of that.
The main problem I have is those things are required for use in areas that need sump pumps. Storms can and will trip them out, even when there was nothing wrong with the equipment that was plugged into them.

So the basement floods, and you have all kinds of damage and hazards.

There should be exemptions for certain applications, IMO.
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Old 03-20-2013, 07:35 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by kbsparky View Post
The main problem I have is those things are required for use in areas that need sump pumps. Storms can and will trip them out, even when there was nothing wrong with the equipment that was plugged into them.

So the basement floods, and you have all kinds of damage and hazards.

There should be exemptions for certain applications, IMO.
GFCI's are required for a reason. Dont you think if your basement is that important you would buy a battery back up sump to begin with?
I just don't agree with your opinion on NON gfci protection, they save lives, end of story.

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Old 03-20-2013, 08:18 PM   #24
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I disagree with your stipulation that GFCIs are the end-all of "saving lives"

Case-in-point:

A shopping center had a 100 hp fire pump located in a pit, with redundant sump pumps. Those pumps were plugged into dedicated GFCI receptacles, each one on its own breaker and GFI.

Storm comes thru, and they both trip out.

Sump pumps cease to operate.

Water begins filling the vault, submerging the fire pump. It is now useless. An entire shopping center is now at risk since none of the sprinklers will now operate. How many lives are at stake now?

While this is an extreme example, it is a real one. The same type of thing can occur in a house, with major flooding resulting from an errant tripped GFI.

Lots of damage, and if the electrical panel or other energized equipment is down there, a much higher risk of electrocution exists, should someone wander into those waters. Again, a real-life example of a job that I have personally witnessed. I was the one who pumped out that basement, and subsequently repaired that place.

A "battery-back-up" unit would not be able to keep up with the amount of water needed to be pumped out in such situations.

So I respectfully disagree that GFIs should be installed in all situations without some exemptions being considered.
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Old 03-20-2013, 08:24 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbsparky View Post
I disagree with your stipulation that GFCIs are the end-all of "saving lives"

Case-in-point:

A shopping center had a 100 hp fire pump located in a pit, with redundant sump pumps. Those pumps were plugged into dedicated GFCI receptacles, each one on its own breaker and GFI.

Storm comes thru, and they both trip out.

Sump pumps cease to operate.

Water begins filling the vault, submerging the fire pump. It is now useless. An entire shopping center is now at risk since none of the sprinklers will now operate. How many lives are at stake now?

While this is an extreme example, it is a real one. The same type of thing can occur in a house, with major flooding resulting from an errant tripped GFI.

Lots of damage, and if the electrical panel or other energized equipment is down there, a much higher risk of electrocution exists, should someone wander into those waters. Again, a real-life example of a job that I have personally witnessed. I was the one who pumped out that basement, and subsequently repaired that place.

A "battery-back-up" unit would not be able to keep up with the amount of water needed to be pumped out in such situations.

So I respectfully disagree that GFIs should be installed in all situations without some exemptions being considered.
Hard wired pumps should be installed in a commercial application, thus not requiring the GFCI protection, as far as residential, hell, the power could fail just as easily as the GFCI, so GFCI should remain in place, no exceptions.
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Old 03-20-2013, 09:11 PM   #26
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The Richmond model that we just had installed yesterday draws 6 amps, and when I called Lennox to see what the furnace pulled, they said 9 amps, so guess what two got the same circuit. Lennox gave the ok that I could hook the Power vent W/H unit to the same 20 amp line that the furnace is on. The Power Vent that goes on top, has a Ground pigtail that connects to the water heater tank, which then allows it to be grounded.

As for a certain someone and the other stating that it needs a gfci breaker or outlet, the following is from the manual for the same unit that Rheem rebadged as their Richmond line, that I have.

The maximum current draw is
approximately 5.0 amps ..
The water heater must be electrically
grounded in accordance with local
codes, or, in the absence of local codes,
in accordance with latest edition of the
National Electric Code ANSI/NFPA No ..
70 ..Refer to the figures below for water
heater internal wiring .
NOTE: It is not recommended that this
unit be installed on a GFCI circuit.

http://www.rheem.com/documents/power...nd-care-manual

From the info for their tankless model:

Power Cord
The electric power supply requirement for this
water heater is 120 VAC/60 Hz, 2 amps.
A dedicated circuit is recommended for the water
heater. Do not connect to a GFCI or AFCI circuit.
Multiple units may be connected to a single
circuit up to the circuit rating.
Do not use 3-prong to 2-prong adapters. Do not
use power strips or multiple outlet adapters.

http://www.rheem.com/documents/tankl...nd-care-manual
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Old 03-20-2013, 09:21 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
The Richmond model that we just had installed yesterday draws 6 amps, and when I called Lennox to see what the furnace pulled, they said 9 amps, so guess what two got the same circuit. Lennox gave the ok that I could hook the Power vent W/H unit to the same 20 amp line that the furnace is on. The Power Vent that goes on top, has a Ground pigtail that connects to the water heater tank, which then allows it to be grounded.

As for a certain someone and the other stating that it needs a gfci breaker or outlet, the following is from the manual for the same unit that Rheem rebadged as their Richmond line, that I have.

The maximum current draw is
approximately 5.0 amps ..
The water heater must be electrically
grounded in accordance with local
codes, or, in the absence of local codes,
in accordance with latest edition of the
National Electric Code ANSI/NFPA No ..
70 ..Refer to the figures below for water
heater internal wiring .
NOTE: It is not recommended that this
unit be installed on a GFCI circuit.

http://www.rheem.com/documents/power...nd-care-manual

From the info for their tankless model:

Power Cord
The electric power supply requirement for this
water heater is 120 VAC/60 Hz, 2 amps.
A dedicated circuit is recommended for the water
heater. Do not connect to a GFCI or AFCI circuit.
Multiple units may be connected to a single
circuit up to the circuit rating.
Do not use 3-prong to 2-prong adapters. Do not
use power strips or multiple outlet adapters.

http://www.rheem.com/documents/tankl...nd-care-manual
They also recommend a dedicated circuit for a 2 amp appliance. Why do you think they recommend that Greg? It's to cover their ass when some jack ass calls and the person on the phone can just reply with, "Is it on a dedicated circuit?" same with the GFCI / AFCI request, its just a CYA, but in reality, you have no choice BUT to install a GFCI protected receptacle. not sure why you are so thick headed about this.
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Old 03-20-2013, 10:27 PM   #28
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There is no exception in the NEC to allow the receptacle not to have GFI protection because the instructions for a piece of equipment say not to install it on the GFI protected circuit.

Looks they created a piece of equipment that cannot be installed in an unfinished basement.
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Old 03-20-2013, 10:52 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
There is no exception in the NEC to allow the receptacle not to have GFI protection because the instructions for a piece of equipment say not to install it on the GFI protected circuit.

Looks they created a piece of equipment that cannot be installed in an unfinished basement.
No, looks like they have created a piece of equipment that does not require a GFCI per the specifications of the equipment. If you look at these units, the majority are now plastic casings on the OnDemand units, and the power vent on holding tank units are built out of plastic.

If you want to be combative with the manufacturers, take it up with their engineers. I am sure that they will come back and defeat your comment that you posted Jim.

If water heaters were never meant to be in basements, they would have never been installed there in the first place.

Now to turn things around, why don't Furnaces, boilers, humidifiers, air cleaners, electrostatic filter units required to have gfci, when in unfinished spaces or even afci protection in the home?

Cannot wait to see you try to come up with that answer, and come back with a reply on it.
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Old 03-21-2013, 06:22 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post



Now to turn things around, why don't Furnaces, boilers, humidifiers, air cleaners, electrostatic filter units required to have gfci, when in unfinished spaces or even afci protection in the home?

Cannot wait to see you try to come up with that answer, and come back with a reply on it.
In my best attempt to stop feeding the troll since that's all you are, You are not an electrician nor have any NEC background experience, for the simplicty of everyone else actually still reading this nonsense, Its NOT ABOUT THE EQUIPMENT.... its WHERE the RECEPTACLE is LOCATED.

I dont understand why that is so hard for you to grasp. There are NO NEC exceptions, manufacture instructions do not trump the NEC. This is my last comment on this subject.

If you buy ANY piece of equipment that requires electricity, the first line in the instructions always says, "Must be installed to NEC and local codes" that right there says it all Greg.

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