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Power Vent Water Heater

16K views 57 replies 12 participants last post by  stickboy1375 
#1 ·
I am wanting to change out my old water heater and replace it with a new Power vent water heater. I just have one question is it good to run a 14/2 wire with a 15amp breaker with a GFCI or is better to run a 12/2 wire with a 20amp breaker with a GFCI. Thanks in advance for any help or input.
 
#47 ·
And again I know what the code states, but also what the manufacturer states about the Power Vent & On Demand units. It clearly states that they are not recommended or required to be plugged into a GFCI protected circuit.

So again, if you want to argue this, take it up with the manufacturers engineers and tell them they are stating incorrect information, and that you request that they pull their equipment off of the market, due to they are selling unsafe appliances.

If you think I am just pulling your leg, or bs'ing you, I have stated enough already where you need to look at the info I have posted, and personally I am going by what the code by my city, state, the manufacturer have stated, and my power vent water heater is staying connected as is.

Unless the NFPA, the manufacturer, my city or state states otherwise, it is as is, with no gfci protected circuit. Same goes for the furnace, since it is stated the same for it by the manufacturer, City, State code, and the NEC.
 
#58 ·
Personally, if I was a manufacture, I would list as many requirements as possible to avoid any blame to my product, so it makes perfect sense to label GFCI protection as not recommend, these recommendations are written by lawyers, not engineers as Greg wants to believe.... Bottom line folks, if you have a receptacle in an unfinished basement, I don't carte what appliance you are going to plug into this receptacle, it does not matter, that receptacle must have GFCI protection.
 
#3 ·
In general I like to run 12/2 so you have it if you ever need it.
My water heater is only 2a (iirc) so it doesn't matter what breaker you used with it.

Why do you want a GFCI? Mine isn't, and unless there is a new code requirement I don't know about, I would say it is highly undesirable.
 
#4 ·
I
Why do you want a GFCI? Mine isn't, and unless there is a new code requirement I don't know about, I would say it is highly undesirable.
I would ask how the unit is wired and the location of the unit before saying it is undesirable. If it is a cord and plug unit and located in a unfinished basement, then it would be VERY desirable.
 
#17 ·
The manufacturer installation instructions will tell you amperage needed and thus wire sizing.

I have been using a power vent WH for about 13 years. They work great for heating water fast, but they are noisy. I finally put a timer on the electrical supply to shut down the system at night. There is difference of opinion on whether shutting down at night saves any energy. My opinion is that you would need a super insulated tank to realize any substantial savings.

They are also expensive, so if you are going to spend that kind of money get the one with the longest tank warranty. The tank will go first.
 
#24 ·
I disagree with your stipulation that GFCIs are the end-all of "saving lives"

Case-in-point:

A shopping center had a 100 hp fire pump located in a pit, with redundant sump pumps. Those pumps were plugged into dedicated GFCI receptacles, each one on its own breaker and GFI.

Storm comes thru, and they both trip out.

Sump pumps cease to operate.

Water begins filling the vault, submerging the fire pump. It is now useless. An entire shopping center is now at risk since none of the sprinklers will now operate. How many lives are at stake now?

While this is an extreme example, it is a real one. The same type of thing can occur in a house, with major flooding resulting from an errant tripped GFI.

Lots of damage, and if the electrical panel or other energized equipment is down there, a much higher risk of electrocution exists, should someone wander into those waters. Again, a real-life example of a job that I have personally witnessed. I was the one who pumped out that basement, and subsequently repaired that place.

A "battery-back-up" unit would not be able to keep up with the amount of water needed to be pumped out in such situations.

So I respectfully disagree that GFIs should be installed in all situations without some exemptions being considered.
 
#26 ·
The Richmond model that we just had installed yesterday draws 6 amps, and when I called Lennox to see what the furnace pulled, they said 9 amps, so guess what two got the same circuit. Lennox gave the ok that I could hook the Power vent W/H unit to the same 20 amp line that the furnace is on. The Power Vent that goes on top, has a Ground pigtail that connects to the water heater tank, which then allows it to be grounded.

As for a certain someone and the other stating that it needs a gfci breaker or outlet, the following is from the manual for the same unit that Rheem rebadged as their Richmond line, that I have.

The maximum current draw is
approximately 5.0 amps ..
The water heater must be electrically
grounded in accordance with local
codes, or, in the absence of local codes,
in accordance with latest edition of the
National Electric Code ANSI/NFPA No ..
70 ..Refer to the figures below for water
heater internal wiring .
NOTE: It is not recommended that this
unit be installed on a GFCI circuit.

http://www.rheem.com/documents/power-vent-power-vent-use-and-care-manual

From the info for their tankless model:

Power Cord
• The electric power supply requirement for this
water heater is 120 VAC/60 Hz, 2 amps.
• A dedicated circuit is recommended for the water
heater. Do not connect to a GFCI or AFCI circuit.
Multiple units may be connected to a single
circuit up to the circuit rating.
• Do not use 3-prong to 2-prong adapters. Do not
use power strips or multiple outlet adapters.

http://www.rheem.com/documents/tankless-h84-outdoor-tankless-condensing-unit-use-and-care-manual
 
#27 ·
They also recommend a dedicated circuit for a 2 amp appliance. Why do you think they recommend that Greg? It's to cover their ass when some jack ass calls and the person on the phone can just reply with, "Is it on a dedicated circuit?" same with the GFCI / AFCI request, its just a CYA, but in reality, you have no choice BUT to install a GFCI protected receptacle. not sure why you are so thick headed about this.
 
#28 ·
There is no exception in the NEC to allow the receptacle not to have GFI protection because the instructions for a piece of equipment say not to install it on the GFI protected circuit.

Looks they created a piece of equipment that cannot be installed in an unfinished basement.
 
#35 ·
No Stickboy, the only person that is lost is you. I know what the NEC is, also certified in the Navy, and pulled more hours in four years 24/7 365, doing electric on board ship, than you have done in what 10 maybe 15 years acting like you know everything. At least I have the gall to go look stuff up before stating stuff, such as in this topic as you have.

If the manufacturer stated that it requires a gfci protected outlet, it would state so in the documentation. Power Vent water heaters fall into the same category as dishwashers, furnaces, air cleaners for hvac, etc. Why, it is because the appliance is hard mounted and can not be moved.

If it was required to be gfci protected, so would dishwashers & disposals. But until NFPA decides differently, right now you do not need to protect Dishwashers, the power vent on water heaters, or ondemand water heaters, disposals with gfci protection.

Do believe that this case is closed, but I am sure that you will keep dragging it along like any other topic that you think you can smart off about a person, just because they can actually pull up facts, not spout off stuff like you do, because you do not investigate, and just go by something that someone who thought they knew what they were telling you was fact, which it is obvious from what you have stated on this topic is just your opinion, but I was able to pull fact from the manufacturer.
 
#36 · (Edited)
Why do you think the manufacture overrides the NEC? and as I already stated, look at any manual that requires electricity, it will clearly state that is MUST be installed to the NEC and any local codes... seems to me you are lost again....

Keep on trolling... ;) Im still waiting for when you realize that you are wrong again, you just change the scenario to make yourself look correct in the thread... that move you do always amuses me. Happy trails buckaroo....
 
#37 ·
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#40 ·
Jim Port said:
All of that equipment is hard wired. The NEC addresses receptacles in unfinished areas needing GFI protection, not outlets.
The only time it would be hardwired if it is commericial equipment. If you go back to the two links I posted before, there is nothing in them about a requirement to be hardwired, and very clearly states that the manufacuterer requests that you do not plug the equipment into a gfci protected circuit.

Now if you go pull up California's code, they even state that the only time a OnDemand, power damper or Power Vent Water Heater needs to be on a gfci protected circuit, is when it is installed in an outdoor location.

The ynits I mentioned all fall under the same category as Dishwashers, garbage disposalls. Until NFPA changes the requirents, I am going by what the manufacturer states in their installation instructions, and what my local AHJ states, which is both stating the same, that they are not required to be on a gfci protected citcuit at this time, in an unfinished space.
 
#42 ·
Then you need to argue that with the manufacturer of these appliances. Again, if they stated that they needed GFCI protection, then it would be stated not only in the local AHJ rules, but also in the installation instructions of the appliance.

I think that I am done trying to argue a subject that you are not listening to the information, or looking into what I am trying to tell you. If you want to argue that what I am repeating directly from the manufacturer information that their engineers who also have cleared the appliance with not only the rules of the NEC, but also with the UL, then I guess everyone has been doing it wrong for over twenty years, and every one of these appliances have been installed incorrect from the beginning, even though the manufacturers & the local rules state otherwise.
 
#43 ·
The manufacturer cannot override the NEC. They can exceed it but not lessen the requirements.

Going back to your equipment list you will not find that things like a furnace, water heater etc are listed for use with flex cord, nor do they meet the flex cord rules that allow for frequent exchange or for vibration isolation.
 
#44 ·
As I have stated before, the manufacturer is not over riding the NEC. No where in the NEC, does it state that Power Vent water heaters are required for them to be protected by a GFCI outlet. Same goes for Disposals & Dish washers. So until NFPA changes that, the manufacturer will state what I have repeated from the instruction manuals for both Rheem's On Demand & Power vent units, that you are not required to have a GFCI protected circuit. And as California code, and other states state, that the only time it needs to be on a GFCI protected outlet, is in a outdoor location, not in a unfinished basement.

So again, go argue it with the manufacturer that they are incorrect in what they are putting in the information that comes with the Installer instructions.
 
#46 ·
As already said by Jim, a manufacture cannot lessen any NEC requirement nor do they ever require you to do so, and as I stated many times before, any appliance that requires electricity will also state in the instructions that it MUST be installed to the NEC and local codes, if you refer to 210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personal of the NEC, you will see these requirements. it really is that simple.
 
#48 ·
Of course, if you like Jim would go and read the manufacturer info, or contact their engineering department, they will state that they are not lessening or ignoring NEC requirements. They will though state that the equipment is not required to be connected to GFCI protection as I have already stated, unless local or state ordinance states otherwise, or as California and all other states codes state, that it must be gfci protected if located in an outdoor location.
 
#51 ·
First of all, I wasn't on your case about this as I was actually (quietly) siding with you. I was silent on this particular issue because I believe you do have to go with the manufacturer specs even if they are less than code requires.

However, I can see the other side of the argument. Nothing says that this piece of equipment is required to be installed in a basement. So, since this is a cord and plug appliance, if it is installed in a (unfinished) basement, I could see the AHJ requiring a GFI.

Secondly, I did use a search engine, but I do not know the magic words you typed in to find one city in CA's requirements for TANKLESS water heaters. Unless I'm mistaken, tankless water heaters are a complete different type of water heater than a power vent water heater. The power vent water heaters I've installed look exactly like a typical tank style water heater with a electric exhaust vent on top. Tankless typically have the ability to be hardwired, and the power vent variety I am familiar with are not able to be hardwired.
 
#53 ·
The power vent water heaters I've installed look exactly like a typical tank style water heater with a electric exhaust vent on top. Tankless typically have the ability to be hardwired, and the power vent variety I am familiar with are not able to be hardwired.
I actually found a commercial grade/heavy duty that can be hardwired, but requires MC for the connection between it and the box, but I did not want to spend that much on a unit that is going in our home. If it was a rental property if I owned one, then yes I probably would have spent that much on one.

My Brother-In-Law has a On Demand, on Well Water, and I can tell you that it takes longer for it to come up to proper temp, compared to the tank unit that we had before that was 14 years old, and same for the new unit that is only a couple of days old.
 
#52 ·
I just went through and played around with a variance of "Do ondemand water heaters require gfci protection", and "do power vent water heaters require a gfci protected circuit", etc.. It is kind of a hit or miss, due to the Boolean language that is used for the search.

The search engines are programmed of course to look for key words, just like when you are going to a library and using a card catalog look up on their computer system. You just have to play around to get the right combo to find enough hits that lead you to what you are looking for.

But everything that I looked up using different combos, came up with mostly the same sites, and none came up with anything that cited a requirement for Power vent or On Demand water heaters required to be gfci protected in a basement or garage, other than the hit I got last night on the City of Calabasas, that cited the requirement as only being outside.

I can also see the argument that because it is a plug in device in an outlet, that there are those that automatically want it to be plugged into a gfci protected outlet, but after finding the key piece that they are covered under 110.3(b), that pretty much closes this argument among the others trying to look at the glass is half full, vs. actually seeing the big picture.

I also understand that locals can trump what the manufacturer states in their documentation, so that is why the manufacturers always state no matter what the appliance is, to check with your local codes. Mine say nothing about On Demand or Power Vent water heaters being on a gfci protected outlet, let alone a dedicated outlet, so that is why it is on the same 20 amp circuit as my furnace, because total amperage of the two together, does not exceed the rating of the circuit breaker. Also since my plumber is licensed for HVAC/Plumbing/Gas/Electrical, he also made the final say as to what I needed to do before he came to plumb in the new unit.

If it did, I would have pulled a dedicated run of 14/2 for the water heater, or since I have about 50' of 12/2 on my shelf that I keep excess Romex, MC, THHN/THWN spools on, would have just used the 12/2 Romex for the run.
 
#55 ·
IMO, if the unit didn't come with a cord and plug and you installed it in the basement, you would have to hardwire the unit. If it came with a cord and plug, you could install a single receptacle and not GFI protect it.
 
#56 ·
And that is where the pointless argument with the others lie, that even I knew that, and that is why I did what I did. But also our area does not require even if it was on a duplex, that it does not need to be gfci protected in an unfinished basement, because it is covered under 110.3(b).
 
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