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-   -   Power Save Device (http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/power-save-device-13769/)

capt2 11-25-2007 09:40 PM

Power Save Device
 
I wanted to get feedback on this device that plugs into the panel. It claims to save 10 to 25 percent on an electric bill. What do you sparkys think? Thanks in advance.http://www.power-save1200.com/?gclid...FQp7PAod9krNMw

chris75 11-25-2007 09:52 PM

Absolutely no way... it's a gimmick.

RichyL 11-25-2007 11:09 PM

Dont know if it will work or not supposedly only stores excess energy from inductive loads. I would not get it mainly because of thier crappy return policy. http://www.power-save.com/return_policy.html You gotta notify them within 48 hours that you are going to return it, which would be before you even get the product!! Do not buy this it is a rip off.

Andy in ATL 11-26-2007 03:46 AM

Rip-off....:yes:

sluggermike 11-26-2007 03:53 AM

Since you only have 48 hours to return the item, how would you know if it was saving you any money on your electric bill even if you installed it immediately? I have a better idea and I won't even charge you for it. Turn off your lights when you're not using them, and I guarantee that you will save some money. My advice comes with a 30 day money back guarantee.

arichard21 11-26-2007 05:31 AM

never heard of someone requiring you to let them know you are returning something...

elkangorito 11-26-2007 07:59 AM

Gentlemen,

The comments so far have been, for want of a better word, "broad".

Contrary to popular belief, this "device" is not a gimmick. It is actually quite functional despite a few points.

Firstly, about the warranty...some have quoted 2 days (48 hours) in which to return the device if not satisfied. This is not correct vis a vis & from the website;

"Is there a “Money Back Guarantee?
Yes, 60-day money back guarantee. If in 60 days, you don’t see reduction in usage on your electric bill, call us and let us know, and we’ll give you details on how to return the unit for a full refund of the purchase price. Installation cost will not be refunded."

Further;
"***NO returns/exchanges will be honored If you return an item or items to us without notifying us within 48 hours of receiving your order. Returns received without 48 hours notice, return confirmation & after the 7th day will be REFUSED. Packages will be returned back to you. No refund, exchange, or store credit will be issued."

These two paragraphs "unclearly" state that if one does not notify the company within 48 hours of receiving your order, returns or exchanges will not be honoured. Obviously, the supplier needs a time from which they will start "counting" the warranty period. This is much the same as buying any other piece of equipment, eg an electric hand drill. You are given a period of time in which to lodge the warranty form, usually up to 1 month.

Secondly, the device is defined by the supplier as a Power Factor Correction device. Basically, it's a capacitor that's connected in parallel to the supply. In the case of the Power-Save 1200, my guess is that it is a capacitor rated at 1.2kVAR, which seems about right according to my calculations (based on the demo video footage).
What is not discussed is how the energy supplier bills you. For example, in Australia, Power Factor will make little difference (if any) to the power bill because consumers are not billed on Maximum Demand & consumers are supplied with "Induction disc" Wattmeters. A 1kW motor will absorb 1kW, even if it has a low Power Factor. If it has a low Power Factor, more current is used to make up for the inefficiency. If it has a high Power Factor, less current is used but the same amount of power is used. Most kWH meters only measure kW. On the other hand, if your electricity supplier can measure your Maximum Demand (the peak amount of current over any 15 minute period), you may be charged extra if your Maximum Demand is high. Is this the case in the USA?

Thirdly, you will save a small amount of money if you use Power Factor Correction because equipment will operate more efficiently (intrinsically) even if you are not billed for Maximum Demand. This cost saving is generally unnoticeable.

Fourthly, the device is UL listed but the listing has nothing to do with saving money. See the links below;

http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/t...315&sequence=1

http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/t...315&sequence=1

http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/t...903&sequence=1

People in Thailand have tried to sell similar devices but like Australia, consumers in Thailand are not billed for Maximum Demand & so the money savings are unnoticeable.

The "standard" induction disc Wattmeter cannot measure Power Factor & therefore cannot take into account any inefficiency introduced by Power Factor. It only looks at torque (1) produced by "in phase" current & torque (2) produced by "in phase" supply voltage. A phase difference between the two will cancel each other (ie poor Power Factor). On the other hand, electronic Wattmeters may be able to account for such inefficiencies & therefore charge accordingly.

I could build the same device for less than US$50.00. Installation would be extra. For $300.00, I wouldn't buy it. Any "sparky" with half a brain could do well from such a device, even if selling it for $100.00 (one third of the price).

LawnGuyLandSparky 11-26-2007 08:38 AM

I doubt any country bills residential service for anything other than simple Kwh.

2 of the biggest money-making scams are - selling people devices guaranteed to "save you money" and selling people ideas guaranteed to "get rich quick."

elkangorito 11-26-2007 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LawnGuyLandSparky (Post 76256)
I doubt any country bills residential service for anything other than simple Kwh.

2 of the biggest money-making scams are - selling people devices guaranteed to "save you money" and selling people ideas guaranteed to "get rich quick."

All doubts aside, I am still interested to know if US people are billed with or without Maximum Demand.

As I said, this thing is not a gimmick, although I can't see how it can substantially save money unless the Maximum Demand method of billing is used or electronic kWh meters are used, which may be able to recognise Power Factor inefficiencies.

Whilst speculation & cynicism is healthy, fact is the only thing that can tell the difference between a "gimmick" & a real thing.

Like I said, "I could build the same device for less than US$50.00. Installation would be extra. For $300.00, I wouldn't buy it. Any "sparky" with half a brain could do well from such a device, even if selling it for $100.00 (one third of the price)."

LawnGuyLandSparky 11-26-2007 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elkangorito (Post 76265)
All doubts aside, I am still interested to know if US people are billed with or without Maximum Demand.

Residential services are not billed for demand, though I hear some utilities are trying to re-think that position with the advent of tankless electric water heaters, which require a ton of power for comparitively short bursts.
This can wreck havoc on a distribution system that has 2-20 customers on a transformer.

Quote:

As I said, this thing is not a gimmick, although I can't see how it can substantially save money unless the Maximum Demand method of billing is used or electronic kWh meters are used, which may be able to recognise Power Factor inefficiencies.

Whilst speculation & cynicism is healthy, fact is the only thing that can tell the difference between a "gimmick" & a real thing.

Like I said, "I could build the same device for less than US$50.00. Installation would be extra. For $300.00, I wouldn't buy it. Any "sparky" with half a brain could do well from such a device, even if selling it for $100.00 (one third of the price)."
There is so little comparitive motor load on a residential service this device would never save any homeowner money, even if it were free.

s0lidgr0und 11-26-2007 10:55 AM

This gadget sounds like the stupidest thing I've ever heard of. Save your money by just turning off lights when you're not using them, etc.

Stubbie 11-26-2007 12:10 PM

Before we get to going overboard here lets not fore go the fact that inductive loads are on the increase in new construction single family dwellings and the power distribution system in the USA has been re-engineering to address the power factor concerns to single family dwellings. Devices similar to the technology of this unit are used to the advantage of many commercial facilities to reduce there costs of energy consumption. So power factor correction is not a gimmick. Your utility has been and will continue to install power factor condition systems to address this increasing inductive load issue in the USA.

Now having said that elkangarito is simply saying that PFC is not a gimmick and will save you in energy costs given the right circumstances. The thing I question with this device is not only its cost and savings claims but that demo was a motor under no load so your reactive power is much less and we also don't know what the total inductive load was on all those panel boards. He has his device connected to them with very small loads showing on that meter of his. He also states this is a unit using capacitors in parallel which is a form of "passive pfc" which essentially only corrects the nonlinearity of a motor inductive load. In other words it is attempting to make the current and voltage waveform more in line with a resistive load and more friendly so to speak with the mains. So your really just doing your part to help the utility. I really would be skeptical that any type of PFC device on our domestic power to single family homes is going to save you any money... not a cent IMO.

An example where this (PFC) may be cost effective is if your a commercial business under contruction and your business is going to be very power factor critical. Then it will benefit you to engineer hand in hand with the utility for pfc systems that will reduce costs in wire size and transformer size to the utiity , reduce harmonic effects, and use active pfc such as utilizing synchronous motors etc..

No.... I wouldn't buy this thing and if I had some of those power factors he was showing before turning on his device I would be calling my utility to find out what was the deal.

As an added note power factor correction is a complex subject and is not easily addressed in "short form" so some over simplification many very well occur in any explanations that we have here on this thread.

joed 11-26-2007 03:48 PM

This whole thing sounds like a spam post or sales pitch vaguely disguised as a question. You guys are promoting the scam without even knowing it.

capt2 11-26-2007 04:02 PM

Joed,
No scam or spam here. I looked online for feedback, couldn't find any so I asked here. I then threw the brochure away after the first few negative comments. Capt

elkangorito 11-26-2007 10:15 PM

I thought that the demonstration video gave a good example of the effects of poor power factor but it did not demonstrate the usefulness of the device in a normal domestic situation (because it's of no real use). I really think that this device is redundant for domestic use.

There is only one way to effectively correct power factor & this is with a stepped capacitor bank that auto adjusts with the changing P.F.

Oops, almost forgot. There are actually 2 other ways to correct power factor;

1] synchronous motors (as Stubbie said)
2] Active signal injection.


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