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Old 11-24-2007, 07:31 PM   #46
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Is it possible to add a 4 way switch to this configuration?


Another thing that confuses me in your diagram. And I do love your graphics and respect you very much Stub. You show two hots leaveing the panel, but only one neutral coming back with the 27A. Where did the other neutral go? You are showing a MWBC with the hots sharing a leg. We can both agree that is bad. Circuit #1 has a neutral. Circuit # 2 has a neutral. Circuit #1 stole (hijacked) Circuit #2s neutral ONLY on the recess can. The total load for Circuit #1 will not transfer to Circuit #2s neutral thru that can and three-way set up. Circuit #1s neutral will not show 0A and Circuit #2s neutral will not show 27A.

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Old 11-24-2007, 09:22 PM   #47
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Is it possible to add a 4 way switch to this configuration?


As I read and ponder...I have one more question to add to the mix. Lets assume that Cir. #1 and Cir. #2 are in fact connected thru the neutrals and are sharing the same leg. Where would the over amperage occur that is going to start the fire? Cir. #1 with 12 original amps? Or Circuit # 2 with 17 original amps? When the neutrals are tied together are there or are there no two paths back to the panel? If we removed #1s neutral from beneath the neutral bar, then we would have a MWBC sharing a leg. I don't think this is the case. I think we have two (unparallel ) paths.

I am ALWAYS open to being wrong. I would like to be proved wrong, however. I think even somebody with my lack of maturity deserves that.

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Old 11-24-2007, 09:44 PM   #48
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Is it possible to add a 4 way switch to this configuration?


In this case he did not tie the neutrals together to create a parallel path. He tied a device to a hot from circuit and neutral from another circuit. That means the neutral is carrying the current from two different hot circuits.
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Old 11-24-2007, 10:24 PM   #49
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Is it possible to add a 4 way switch to this configuration?


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In this case he did not tie the neutrals together to create a parallel path. He tied a device to a hot from circuit and neutral from another circuit. That means the neutral is carrying the current from two different hot circuits.
You are right joed. The neutral from the hijacked circuit is carrying the full load of its circuit PLUS 1/2A from the other circuit. It is not carrying the full load of both circuits.
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Old 11-24-2007, 10:31 PM   #50
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Is it possible to add a 4 way switch to this configuration?


An arguement could also be made against me for there being an increase in the EMF. But come on...One recess can? WTF?

Andy
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Old 11-24-2007, 10:44 PM   #51
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Is it possible to add a 4 way switch to this configuration?


Andy

You really need to let this go. Joed is correct there is no point in showing the other neutral since Irich doesn't have a parallel neutral path. He has stated two or three times that the lights neutral on the 3 way is connected to a different circuits neutral in switch box B which is a multiple gang box. The neutral of the incoming power in switch box A for the three way was never carried to switch box B. If he is correct. There has never been an argument that only the single recessed can is the only additional current at present on the other circuits neutral (as far as we know). The diagram is meant to show Irich the effect if the load increases on the neutral from the 3 way switch leg to show him why the NEC considers this unacceptable.
The point has been from the beginning that this is a code violation and why. The diagrams are not intended to depict exactly what he has.... only what he may have from his description. I don't see how we can ever know unless we have a heck of a lot more information.
You have spent several posts wanting this guy to prove to you that the neutral on that other circuit is not overloaded. And if it isn't (it obviously isn't) then everything is hunky dory and don't worry about it. You... Andy... are proclaiming this to be safe and to heck with the code requirements for safe wiring practices. The hypocrisy in your posts, frankly is rather astounding to me. You seem to want to justify your advice that this is fine once he proves to you that that neutral isn't overloaded.... and I'm still trying to figure out why you want this guy to jump through all that testing stuff without knowing the rest of the circuit information. How on earth do you know what the existing loads are or what might be added to this or what might be plugged into this circuit of his? Your telling this guy don't worry if you get that neutral a little over on amperage cause it won't burn even if you put 40 amps on it. I'm still trying to understand you making those statements.
At any rate this really is ridiculous to worry about a little sheet rock. AlanJ pretty much went over the options to get this correct, which you seemed to ignore. If he has what the wiring diagram shows with a neutral from a branch circuit that has current dumped on it from another branch circuits neutral (same leg or not) it is a code violation and a pretty damn serious one at that. This has got nothing to do with an MWBC. So make it sound as if it is nothing to worry about if you want but I will not agree with you.

I will not respond to any more of your "you owe it to me stuff", your an electrician and you know if this is what Irich has it should be corrected
plain and simple.
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Old 11-24-2007, 11:17 PM   #52
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Is it possible to add a 4 way switch to this configuration?


I never said you owed me anything Stubbie and I never said Rich had a parallel neutral path. Your diagram showed that no other neutral existed for the other circuit. His question referred to one can. Code violation, absolutely. Life safety issue? You are right...we will agree to disagree. End of discussion.

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Old 11-25-2007, 08:54 AM   #53
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Is it possible to add a 4 way switch to this configuration?


It might only be carrying a 1/2 amp now from the light but hit has the potential to carry 30 amps if there ws a fault at the fixture. If we could rely on fixture crrying only what they are rated for then we wouldn't need breakers.
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Old 11-25-2007, 08:59 AM   #54
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Huh??? If there is a fault on the fixture the breaker will open regardless of the 'jacked neutral.
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Old 11-25-2007, 09:08 AM   #55
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Is it possible to add a 4 way switch to this configuration?


just to clear things up, it does have two separate neutrals going back to the panel so the last diagram is wrong also. It either was acceptable back then or the inspectors were even lazier than they are today and missed it in not just my house / neighborhood but probably half of the town. My money is on it was acceptable. I appreciate everyones help on this matter, however, to the person that said not to give advice once you realize something is a code violation, you are correct, but then you wouldn't be giving much advice on this forum would you? I've read some other threads on this forum and notice alot of advice going out that shouldn't. for instance,in one thread, a guy shows a pictures of an old panel box that probably has numerous violations, then a picture of an outlet in his bedroom from the back of the wall which has the plaster removed and you can see extra slack in the wire yet he says there is not enough wire in the box to change the receptacle. So he can't figure out how to change a receptacle and yet members of this board are flooding him with advice on how to change the panel and rewire his house. Is this advisable? That is just one example - I am sure there are plenty more.

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Old 11-25-2007, 09:15 AM   #56
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Is it possible to add a 4 way switch to this configuration?


Rich, It wasn't acceptable then. I apologize for the turn the thread took. I predicted the reaction, though. You seem intelligent. Gather ALL the info and make an informed decision. That is all a DIYer can do anyhow. Best of luck.

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