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05-19-2008, 06:21 AM   #16
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Yes Kingsmurf, NEV (Neutral to Earth Voltage) is when you have voltage drop on the neutral. Whenever there is current flowing through a conductor, there is a voltage drop. When that voltage drop is on the Neutral and then we tie that neutral to the grounding electrode system at the main panel with the main bonding jumper, we then have our whole grounding system at a higher potential than the Zero potential that Earth is at.

Now we bond all the metallic parts of our fiberglass (nonconductive) pool together including the pumps and ladder and tie that into the system ground, we have now essentially brought our pool water potential (voltage) up above that of Earth ground.

So now what happens when we dangle our legs in the pool and have our butt sitting on wet concrete which is in contact with the Earth which is at Zero potential, remember we have an insulating medium (fiberglass with a liner) between the 2 voltage potentials? The body completes the path between the 2 potentials and we receive a shock.

The OP stated that he turned off his main breaker, but that doesn't disconnect his neutral and grounding system from the utilities Neutral.

Now alot of utilities use a single-bushing transformer to supply their rural customers, which has the primary neutral connected to the secondary neutral. When this is done their will always be a voltage drop on the neutral as the neutral will always have current flowing through it.

If this is the problem for the OP what is his solution? Either a 2 bushing transformer which will not have the Primary and Secondary neutrals tied together, or I don't remember what it's called, something like "a neutral blocker" can be installed at the utility transformer to block the neutral current.

I guess the best way to check for the OP would be to get a multimeter, put one probe on his grounding electrode conductor at his service and stick the other one in the ground (wet the ground down first) a few feet away and see if there is a potential between the two points.

 05-19-2008, 06:22 AM #17 electrician   Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 326 Rewards Points: 250 Or I could be all wet about everything I said!
05-19-2008, 07:44 AM   #18
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Kingsmurf if the power at main is off . . .and current is STILL felt at pool it must be POCO problem with neutral from x-former
Agreed, but all the more reason to ensure that everything is bonded correctly...Otherwise that shock he's getting could one day be serious under "ideal" conditions.

05-19-2008, 07:47 AM   #19
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by thekctermite Agreed, but all the more reason to ensure that everything is bonded correctly...Otherwise that shock he's getting could one day be serious under "ideal" conditions.

If the shock is from the NEV, the bonding will do nothing to eliminate the situation.

 05-19-2008, 08:04 AM #20 Newbie   Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 21 Rewards Points: 10 ok new day lemme clear a few things up the transformer i spoke of is at my brothers house 1/2 mile away sitting on the ground. MY power comes from the pole, it runs down the pole underground about 40' then up into my box which is at least 50' away from the pool. At that point of the box i killed the power and everything else on the property is without power. my brothers power comes from the road the opposite direction of my house to that box and its supply is at closest to me at a 1/2 mile I have not called the power company because they most likely will show up with there coffee and tell me to get the pool bonded before they will do anything. I am trying to find the source so i know what i have to fix. At this point it sounds like the undergroud cable from pole to house . Is there a way to check that? Last edited by pipefitter; 05-19-2008 at 08:08 AM.
 05-19-2008, 08:11 AM #21 electrician   Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 326 Rewards Points: 250 call the power company and ask them if the primary and secondary neutrals are connected at their transformer
 05-19-2008, 03:25 PM #22 Newbie   Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 21 Rewards Points: 10 Ok I got .20 volts I checked the meter on a 9v battery it read 9.20 volts.
 05-19-2008, 05:40 PM #23 You talking to me?     Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: sw mi Posts: 7,551 Rewards Points: 6,290 the problem with testing as you have, there is nothing to compare it to. A battery voltage varies so that .2 volts may be a meter error or it could really be a reading. Comparitive tests with another meter will be helpful. One thing you may try since everybody is on this neutral thing; disconnect the neutral and the grounds of the circuits that feed anything near the pool as well as turning off the breaker for those circuits. Then check for the chock/voltage again.
 05-19-2008, 09:11 PM #24 Newbie   Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 21 Rewards Points: 10 no it reads 0 if i put to water and dry concrete. It reads .2 when i put to water and to wet concrete. I'm getting called away for 2 weeks for a 7-12 job tomorrow my last day im gonna mess with the main box and see whats up. I will probaly call the power company tomorrow after I inspect. I talked to 2 other electricians and they are somewhat mystified too. AT the distance i told them the box was they said thatany voltage should not make it to the pool. they back the findings of its a neutral problem so the key is in the white wire just need to figure out where.
 05-20-2008, 01:40 PM #25 Newbie   Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 21 Rewards Points: 10 update: I got in the main circuit box today pulled the main feeds out of the box. I let them hang there and waited one hour went to pool and you guessed it I still got shocked. the volt meter can read anywhere from .18 to .25 depending on contact i guess. I think its safe to say at this point it is nothing on property including a bonding problem. I have callled the power company and explained the situation they will be here this afternoone so mabey i can update further. While talking to power company and staring at my pole something clicked in my head about 4-5 years ago i had a lightning strike hit or almost hit the pole because sparks shot out the transformer on pole. Electric was fine never even hurt anything electronic in my house so i just forgot about it. I'm wondering if this is gonna come into the picture. Ill update after power company leaves.... in other news job was cancled so ill be around still to see this out. Last edited by pipefitter; 05-20-2008 at 01:43 PM.
05-20-2008, 03:28 PM   #26
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## kingsmurf

Fellas . . .just thinking out loud here . . .is there any natural/manmade phenomenon that could generate/account for the current felt . .Pipefitter

could it be some natural phenom? . . .some galvanic reaction underground between disimilar metals..now corroding and thus present before?

Pipefitter...your property is on an well for water and septic tank and leech field for sewer/gray water ?

now I am really fetching . . .what type of voltage / current would that be fellas . .coming from Pipefitters pool ? DC ? AC ? . . .if we knew that would that alter perceptions . .if it was AC . .it must be POCO related though with the leads ( hoipefully POCO's nuetral as well ) disconnected

if DC . . .perhaps an natural phenom/reaction with something under the pool

 05-20-2008, 04:59 PM #27 You talking to me?     Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: sw mi Posts: 7,551 Rewards Points: 6,290 there are several sources of electrolytic actions in and around a pool that could produce a voltage depending on what chemicals are around. That is why I suggest OP remove the neutral. If there is absolutely no connection to the POCO and he still has this problem, either there is some electrolysis involved or the other thing I was thinking was some proximity issues with power lines. I know a guy whose neighbor was building a pole building near a power line. When the guys started hanging steel on the wood frame, they started getting shocked. Time to move the building.
 05-20-2008, 09:41 PM #28 Newbie   Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 21 Rewards Points: 10 ok guys newest update: Your gonna love this.... power company came out I explained everything thus far that i have done. They check the meter for volts in and volts out nothing to speak of there. Thus first call is not our stuff he says, lol the fun begins! he goes to the pole with the transformer the lightning attesters (not sure of the name there)??? were both blown off in that lightning strike i spoke of. he disconnects the transformer and yells over for me to check the water.... you guessed it still shocking I'm like WTF is left that it can be?? the guy is dumbfounded ( this was a old-timer IBEW worker so i'm sure he knew his stuff) next this guy reconnects the lightning attesters and double grounds the transformer. That did nothing to fix the problem still getting shocked. So he likes well we will move to plan B, I'm like whats that, he says were gonna replace the transformer. I'm thinking to myself holy **** thats probaly like a \$5000 job being done on time and a half ya know. So i had to take my kid to the ballgame he said he'd be ok from there on out so i left. When i got home sure enough a BRAND NEW transformer shiny on the pole. I run to the pool in excitement charge up the volt meter and boom voltage.. I touch the water and yes i STILL got shocked. Im about to cry.. some how i fear an invisible super nova has formed above my house. Anyway it was late so hopefully I'll get a call tomorrow I really am lost as to where to proceed from here except wait for the dry season and hope for the best. I'll post again tomorrow when i get a daylights view of the whole picture. Anyone else think of anything else i can ask power company to do pls post it. per request the meter, mine and the electric guys read the same .25 volt dcv and 1.0 volt acv. Another thought though he had heard of a house that a spa was holding a charge and gave a shock though he had no idea for a time frame. Is there anything in a normal household that could hold a charge for an hour. also soil description is very clay like very wet on top but dig down 8-12" very dry some grey clay visible. the pole was 80-100' away that was the the last of any source with 2000 feet of the pool. Edited: yes I do have a well near pool and septic out front of the house far away from pool Last edited by pipefitter; 05-20-2008 at 09:47 PM.
 05-20-2008, 10:22 PM #29 Underground Techie     Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Chicago land Posts: 96 Rewards Points: 75 This could be nuts, but there is something called electrolysis that affects water mains, and is caused from two dissimilar metals or minerals touching each other. One way to solve it is to cad weld all of the pipes together and the fittings to the pipe, then burying diode bags with the pipe, this dissipates the charge through the whole system rather than a single point causing a water main break. Could something like that be happening here?
05-20-2008, 11:43 PM   #30
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Well I'd say most likely not I run off a well. The well may be sleeved with metal but its water is run in black plastic well pipe. however this well is about 10 feet from the concrete and probaly 18' from pools edge

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