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Old 01-21-2012, 08:23 AM   #16
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Have you ever disconnected the gas line when installing a water heater and had the lights go out in the house youre working on only to have them come back on when hooked the union back up on the gas line?
I have.
Come to find out the neutral on the service coming in was cut by a tree in the yard and the service was using that old steel gas line running out of the house under ground as a way to complete the circuit.
Maybe I need to take a priest over there and have him read the NEC to the service panel in that house telling it to change its evil ways!

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Old 01-21-2012, 08:25 AM   #17
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Have you ever disconnected the gas line when installing a water heater and had the lights go out in the house youre working on only to have them come back on when hooked the union back up on the gas line?
I have.
Come to find out the neutral on the service coming in was cut by a tree in the yard and the service was using that old steel gas line running out of the house under ground as a way to complete the circuit.
Maybe I need to take a priest over there and have him read the NEC to the service panel in that house telling it to change its evil ways!
I have absolutely NO idea what your point is.
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Old 01-21-2012, 08:27 AM   #18
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My point is the electricity was working without having a path back to the transformer on the pole!
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Old 01-21-2012, 08:39 AM   #19
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My point is the electricity was working without having a path back to the transformer on the pole!
You know why??? It's not dirt I promise you that.

Where does the gas pipe go? Outside underground, right? Then where? To your neighbor's house, right? Is the pipe bonded at his house? YUP! Is his service neutral bonded? YUP!
Your power was on because the neutral current was flowing on the gas pipe over to your neighbor's neutral.
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Old 01-21-2012, 08:48 AM   #20
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I guess I should have mentioned no neighbors for many miles
Im going out to start a rough in on another house,Ill keep all of your words of wisdom in mind as im drilling holes and pulling wire.
When I get ready to set the panel and mast Ill be sure to take plenty of pictures so you can critique my work! looking forward to more lessons
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Old 01-21-2012, 09:10 AM   #21
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I have a suggestion. Bring this over to ElectricianTalk.com, or Mike Holt's, and see what the reaction is.
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Old 01-21-2012, 09:40 AM   #22
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I have a suggestion. Bring this over to ElectricianTalk.com, or Mike Holt's, and see what the reaction is.
Like hunting over a baited field?
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Old 01-21-2012, 10:00 AM   #23
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Plummen, I’m sure you realize that a properly connected neutral is the best and safest return path for the electrical system which is why the equipment grounds are also bonded to the neutral. The grounding electrodes, like rods and outside conductive water pipes, are mainly for lightning protection and they also actually help prevent a direct lightning strike but that is another topic not related to this discussion. Since everything is not always perfect and wires are subject to damage, the governing bodies decided it was best to also bond the grounding electrodes to the neutral because it will provide better protection than nothing at all, but can also cause other problems like you experienced with the water heater which was a dangerous situation for you. Yes, very conductive earth (not common) can pull a substantial load but it was never intended as the primary return path which I think you also understand.

Long story short, the people writing the codes feel that this configuration is the safest way of doing things and addresses most of the faults that can occur.

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Old 01-21-2012, 04:40 PM   #24
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Ok guys now think back ,not very far!
In every town Ive ever worked in nebraska and kansas for the last many years the rule for electrical service grounding has always been to street side of water meter and a ground rod outside for meter.
If a copper water service was not available such as in a detached garage a 2nd ground rod was required,are you saying every electrical inspector in the cities of omaha ne and lincoln ne has been wrong all these years?
I will call the chief in omaha on monday morning just to see what he says and post it here.
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Old 01-21-2012, 04:56 PM   #25
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If a copper water service was not available such as in a detached garage a 2nd ground rod was required
You are confusing grounding electrodes with neutrals.

Please ask him this question instead. Can I run 2 hots to a detatched garage with no neutral as I have no need for 120 volts. Then tell him you will install 1000 grounding rods.

Edit: Pre equipment ground requirement which we won't get into at this point.

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Old 01-21-2012, 05:00 PM   #26
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Ok guys now think back ,not very far!
In every town Ive ever worked in nebraska and kansas for the last many years the rule for electrical service grounding has always been to street side of water meter and a ground rod outside for meter.
If a copper water service was not available such as in a detached garage a 2nd ground rod was required,are you saying every electrical inspector in the cities of omaha ne and lincoln ne has been wrong all these years?
I will call the chief in omaha on monday morning just to see what he says and post it here.
You are not getting what we are saying.
YES, grounding electrodes ARE required in some form, always have been. What you are describing here is perfectly typical.
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Old 01-21-2012, 05:21 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zappa View Post
You are confusing grounding electrodes with neutrals.

Please ask him this question instead. Can I run 2 hots to a detatched garage with no neutral as I have no need for 120 volts. Then tell him you will install 1000 grounding rods.

Edit: Pre equipment ground requirement which we won't get into at this point.
Im talking about a seperate service from the house with its own meter socket and drop from pole,240v with a nuetral and 2 ground rods if no copper water service was available.
id never waste my time running a 120v supply to a garage
Same way ive had to do houses outside the city that either had a plastic water service coming from a plastic rural water main,or a plastic water service coming in from a plastic well
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Old 01-21-2012, 05:25 PM   #28
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With no metallic water line electrode, two rods would be a common install.
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Old 01-21-2012, 05:28 PM   #29
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With no metallic water line electrode, two rods would be a common install.
And why would that be??????????????? :w histling2:
What purpose would the copper water line have in place of the 2nd ground rod?????????
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Old 01-21-2012, 05:30 PM   #30
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The metallic line would be supplemented by the rods.

BTW, some ares require two rods even with the metallic water line electrode.

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