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Panel full, was wondering what options were

4K views 30 replies 10 participants last post by  joside 
#1 ·
So I have a full panel, the previous owner even double tapped a breaker. I would like to install a few breakers that have two in one, to alleviate this, but the neutral bar is full also, and a couple of them have two wires in the same slot on that bar.

Is there any way I can get more neutral slots? A bar extender or something? Or is running a sub panel the only option ? :(
 
#2 ·
A sub panel, or replace the panel to a bigger one.

As a temp fix you could "double tap" but don't actually put the two wires in the breaker, pigtail to one wire then to the breaker. Choose two circuits that tend to be low load to avoid overload. For the neutral bar I believe you can get extension bars but I'm not too familiar with those.
 
#4 ·
Are you in a jurisdiction that requires a permit for tinkering with the panel? If yes, I would get legal to avoid problems when selling, or when trying to make a claim on your insurance.

In my prior city, I rewired an entire house EXCEPT for the final hookup to the meter. A pro pulled the permit and inspected my work, and the city inspector was involved from Day 1. I saved a TON of money and the pro caught one mistake (but an important one).

If your full panel is like the one in my new home, then you have a bunch of circuits from a prior DIYer that only drive a fraction of their rating, and would be combined in a single circuit if a pro laid it out. My new city won't let me do any of the actual work, but I am still saving $$ by doing a proposed wiring diagram under my electrician's supervision, and once that's done I'm fishing all the cable before they come over to make the connections.

My advice: Get legal, sleep well, avoid fires, shocks, and legal or insurance problems.
 
#6 ·
Do you have a combination of white and bare copper wires on the neutral bar? If you do, get a add on (additional) ground bar and move all the bare grounds to it. This will free up some terminals for neutrals.
Then write down all the panel information. You can then locate the correct tandem or slim breakers you mention. Make sure the panel is designed to accept these type breakers and where they go on the bus bar.
 
#7 ·
yeah, I've thought about a sub, (have a thread on here about it) since this panel is on the outside of the house, I would want to bring the sub into the garage, which would be a long run through the ceiling, which is full, I mean full, of blown insulation, and the cost of the wire would be kind of expensive.

There are separate ground and neutral bars. Some of the grounds are double tapped, which I'm not worried about, but some of the neurtals are also. While I know I could probably consolidate, I'm hoping to just add some more neutrals, change some single breakers to double, and call it a day. If I need to add outlets etc, I would just do it off an existing circuit.

Now.. if the bars are separated, can I extend the neutral?
 
#10 ·
a picture of the wiring in your panel would be worth 1000 words in this discussion. You may be better off swapping out your panel for a modern 42 circuit panel. If thats what you already have then you need to add a sub panel. In many cases adding some twin breakers would be just fine. Its hard to play it by ear on this when we don't know what you have. Just take a picture of your panel with the cove off
 
#11 ·
While I don't know about the insurance part, this house has a couple things wrong with it (well.. that is what I'm trying to fix now) with the full box double tapped etc.. the former owner took extension cords, lopped off the ends and wired them to lights that run through cabinets, etc.. that didn't affect any of the resale stuff.. the only reason it even became an issue is because that stuff was blatantly visible, wires hanging out and you can see the double tapped breakers on the inspection. :laughing:
 
#12 ·
When you do sell, chances are you will have to sign a property disclosure form that includes a statement by you that you did no work without the required permits. That puts you in an ethical position, and if you choose to lie and then there is a problem the lie might come back to bite in a mean way.

Also, if the buyers inspector finds issues with the panel that might make trouble too. Our insurance agent came to the house to photograph the inside of the panel, and we ended up knocking several thousand off the price due to wiring issues.

But yeah, you sound smart and reasonably careful. I'm just saying its not a big deal to get a permit and then do the work yourself, so there must be some other reason to NOT get the permit.

Best of luck

SteveEl
 
#17 ·
This depends on if your panel is "full" or actually full. Hopefully you can find documentation or the sticker on the inside of the door is still there. You can fill a panel up with breakers but still have plenty of room if your panel takes tandems or the 1/2" thin ones. It really just depends on the panel you have. If there is room for more breakers, you can add a netutral/ground bar to make more room for those wires. It should also say in your panel documentation how many wires of what size can go under each lug on the grounding bars. Some panels allow grounds/neutrals together under lugs, some allow 2 #14 but only 1 #12, etc.

You also need to keep in mind the amperage of your panel and how much you are using it. Just because you can fit all your circuits on a 100A panel doesn't mean you aren't overloading it.

If your panel is actually full, then like others have said you have two options: 1) add a subpanel, 2) upgrade to a larger panel. Both of these options require a good deal of work and almost certainly require a permit.
 
#19 ·
pics!













I think I can get more tandem breakers, so I can swap out the double tapped breaker and make it a tandem

what about the neutral and ground bars? I need more slots, can they be extended? If so.. how? I want to get the double tapped neutral out of there too.

Thanks for the help!
 
#20 ·
I can't speak for this exact panel but on most newer ones, the main body of the panel is connected to ground and neutral (unless it's a subpanel where neutral is isolated). You should be able to drill holes and bolt a new bar on. Then make sure there is good contact between the two separate bars. Home Depot sells grounding bars for about $5-10.

Are those two circuits on the right side with two switches each your tandem breakers? The newer tandems that I've worked with don't look like this, they have the switches vertical from one another rather than horizontal. You'll have to see if you can find breakers that fit your panel. I think Square D bought a brand called Homeline that Home Depot has but hopefully someone else here or a guy in the store can help you find the correct breakers.

Those pictures remind me of my old panel with the cloth covered Romex and no ground wires. Be careful working around those hot wires and make sure you flip the main breaker before touching anything on the buses.
 
#24 ·
Yeah, he's right, I can barely read that without blowing up the picture more. It still looks like you have some room though. I count 14 if I'm seeing those tandems right.

Quick question: are those hanging red and black wires below for two other circuits not connected? I'm guessing that the red wires on the panel are from circuits that share a neutral with a black wire circuit? If this is correct, make sure when you hook up those two wires below, they are on different buses. It is ok to share a neutral, but you should have the hots on opposite buses.
 
#25 ·
You seem determined to NOT get a permit. However if there is a fire for undetermined causes in your place, there's a risk your insurer may refuse to pay when they figure out you did unpermitted DIY work to your panel.

I suggest you use all this good free advice on here to help you get legal for the minimum expense, and as I said before, your city does allow DIY work but only if you get a permit.
 
#27 ·
yeah.. I think I'm just going to hire an electrician.

I get circuits, how they work, etc, I can hook up lights, run a new circuit if there are slots available, space on the bars, etc.. pretty straight forward, but trying to free up space and figure out what I need to do is crazy.. I'm nervous I might miss something.
 
#28 ·
It's not that hard, if you pick up one of the Advanced Wiring books at the big box store, and then follow their first chapters carefully.

Learn the symbols for mapping out what you have, then draw a quick floor plan of your house. and mark all the symbols room by room, for everything. Now make copies or scan it before you mark it up more.

Then go thru your breakers and mark your map with which breaker runs what. Don't forget about split outlets (check both plugs in duplex box since they might be different circuits).

When you are done, print another copy and color code it for each breaker.

Voila. you have a color coded inventory to show your codes people. They'll appreciate your effort and might very well help you make a plan for which circuigts you can combine. Then you go away and figure out how you will do the wiring, make pictures and go back to pull your permit.

That's exactly what I've done once before and am in process of doing now in a new place.

Best

Steve El
 
#31 · (Edited)
By duplex box I think he means a normal outlet box that has two outlets. He means to check them both and make sure they are on the same circuit. They usually are but they could be on separate circuit in some instances.

As far as permits go, you usually don't have to update stuff to the code that's not directly related to what you got your permit for. For example, if you want to run a new branch circuit for say a hot tub, they aren't going to make you add a ground to all your old Romex wires, or check that your kitchen outlets are only 48" apart. You may not even need a permit for this limited work, but you can find out.
 
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