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Old 03-11-2009, 07:36 PM   #16
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the only thing that neutral is for is the timer and such..it doesn't have that much current on it, so i don't think sizing is an issue
One of my first troubleshooting experiences taught me different. This was the early 70's when all ranges were 3 wire. I had one leg open and the stove top burners only worked on LOW. This told me that, in least in that case, that the bare conductor and the frame of the appliance was being used to carry substantial current.

I believe that dryers also use 120v motors and 240V elements.

As far as the size of the SE ground....????? I dont know. I twisted some up just yeaterday and, although it seemed like it might be full size, it may just be because it's twisted up more than the insulated wires. The more you twist, the fatter it gets.

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Old 03-11-2009, 08:11 PM   #17
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I was talking about other than the insulation requirement.

I'm not saying its a good idea to go and use the ground.
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Old 03-11-2009, 08:18 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by captainmorgan View Post
The house had a exsisting double built in oven that was hard wired into this circuit with the same wires that the new oven has.Black white green red My father bought a new single built in oven, unfortunately he took the wires apart before I got to look at them.The house 3 wires black,white,cooper. The oven has black,white,green,red.black to black,green to copper,white to white,red to?Thanks
Just incase you ignore the correct advice you were given here I just want to make note of your wiring connections you described. DONT hook white to white!!!! The white is being used as a hot conductor from your panel. The connection will be :

Oven black to wall black,
Oven Red to wall white,
Oven green and white to wall bare copper- all 3 tied together.

It used to be done that way, not anymore. Double check with a multimeter that the white is a hot. Fellow Sparky's, I am not condoning but I saw a potential hazard developing.

Last edited by unclduey; 03-11-2009 at 08:21 PM. Reason: coorection
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Old 03-11-2009, 08:23 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by unclduey View Post
Oven green and white to wall bare copper- all 3 tied together.

Im just making sure, if anybody reads this post, he is not saying its ok to do that...just in case anybody misses that point.

Last edited by rgsgww; 03-12-2009 at 07:18 AM.
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Old 03-11-2009, 08:29 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by rgsgww View Post
This is romex with a bare copper, you cannot do that.
He knows that. It was thrown out there for the "just in case it gets hooked back up the way it was" situation.
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Old 03-11-2009, 08:32 PM   #21
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He knows that. It was thrown out there for the "just in case it gets hooked back up the way it was" situation.
I just wanted to be sure nobody reads it and thinks its ok to do that. I will edit for more clarity...
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Old 03-11-2009, 09:37 PM   #22
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I just wanted to be sure nobody reads it and thinks its ok to do that. I will edit for more clarity...
Thanks, I hoped I had made it clear. I just saw the writing on the wall when he said white to white. You know he is going to do it anyways, at least I tried to avoid him toasting his new oven or worse.
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Old 03-11-2009, 09:38 PM   #23
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the frame of the appliance was being used to carry substantial current.
thats scary
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Old 03-11-2009, 09:43 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by unclduey View Post
Thanks, I hoped I had made it clear. I just saw the writing on the wall when he said white to white. You know he is going to do it anyways, at least I tried to avoid him toasting his new oven or worse.

At least we told him it was wrong.
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Old 03-11-2009, 10:47 PM   #25
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I'm not sure why we continually get into this argument or discussion as to why a 2 conductor with ground nm-b cable is not allowed to be used for a 3 wire range or cooktop or dryer connection. It is a pointless argument. The fact is it has nothing to do with whether or not the bare of an nm-b cable can carry the neutral current safely. The nec restricts the 3 wire branch circuits to those wiring methods it knows were the type used before they made it a code violation. The nfpa and the NEC simply want to limit these 3 wire branch circuits to those prior to 1996 and not allow new ones to be installed. Bonding the frame of these appliances to the neutral has potential electrocution risks given the correct circumstances. The NFPA keeps very detailed records of reported deaths from household appliance electrical faults. The majority of deaths or near deaths from dryer faults and cooking appliance faults are 3 wire connections. This is what prompted the code change to 4 wires in 1996. It is foolish to give instructions to the contrary.
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Old 03-12-2009, 12:43 AM   #26
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...and he has an existing condition. Lots of advice was given to the OP on what he should do and if he chooses to ignore it he was given information on how to reconnect his new oven as safe as possible.
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Old 03-12-2009, 06:29 AM   #27
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Existing condition or not, this is UNSAFE and careless advice!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by unclduey View Post
Just incase you ignore the correct advice you were given here I just want to make note of your wiring connections you described. DONT hook white to white!!!! The white is being used as a hot conductor from your panel. The connection will be :

Oven black to wall black,
Oven Red to wall white,
Oven green and white to wall bare copper- all 3 tied together.

It used to be done that way, not anymore. Double check with a multimeter that the white is a hot. Fellow Sparky's, I am not condoning but I saw a potential hazard developing.
NO!!! This was NEVER done!
The ONLY time a bare conductor was allowed to be a neutral was if SEU cable was used. SEU is not the same as NM-B.
The bare wire in NM-B or UF cable was never EVER allowed to carry circuit current. Period. End of story.
I am surprised and saddened that an electrician does not even know this.
If you have a problem with this please read NEC 250.140 Exc. #3. It is quite clear.

Read Stubbie's post again and please do not try and justify giving out dangerous advice.
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Old 03-12-2009, 10:15 AM   #28
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I stand corrected, run a new cable...
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Old 03-12-2009, 10:18 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by unclduey View Post
...and he has an existing condition. Lots of advice was given to the OP on what he should do and if he chooses to ignore it he was given information on how to reconnect his new oven as safe as possible.
Why on earth would you intentionally give information that you know is incorrect??

He was given the correct information, if he chooses to ignore it then it's on him. You are basically telling him that nm cable is fine to use as it was prior to the new oven, when in fact it was a code violation originally.
It would have been far better to say "do not think about reusing that cable even though it worked before" a new 4 wire is required by the electrical code for safety reasons as 3 wire connections have some risks that a 4 wire connection eliminates.
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Old 03-12-2009, 11:10 AM   #30
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I stand corrected, run a new cable...
I stand corrected, run a new cable...

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