I'll try to make this as simple as I can. Thanks for any help in advance!
The Scenario
1 Room, 1 switch that controls 4 recessed lights. I didn't put in the lights; they appear to be inaccessible. (I tried)
There is one outlet in the room. It, like the switch, is on a wall with an unfinished back I can access. The outlet was, until recently, not wired.
The only circuit I'm willing to link the outlet to is the same circuit that controls all the other lights on this floor. (the basement) This switch/lights appear to be at the end of the circuit, furthest from the main breaker.
The Problem
When I setup the following wiring scheme
(All grounds together) Outlet Ground -> Incoming Circuit Ground/Switch Ground Wire-Nutted
(All neutrals together) Outlet Neutral -> Incoming Circuit Neutral/Returning Circuit Neutral Wire-Nutted
(Hot to Switch Screw) Outlet Hot -> Incoming Circuit Hot/Switch Hot Screwed (No backstabbing)
The outlet works just fine...when the lights are off. When I flip them on, the outlet tester I am using states that the hot/ground are reversed. I cannot fathom how this could occur, so I'm operating under the assumption at this point that the lights were run in a manner where black was wired to white at the end of one of the circuits and I've an open neutral.
My solution to this was to yank out the lights and rewire them so they formed a circuit with which I'm more familiar, using 14-3 and bringing the hot back along the red wire, but I can't figure out a way to get the lights down. I'm worried they're "New Construction" and are nailed to the joists, which I believe means I'm out of luck, short of damaging the drywall. In that scenario I'd rather just run another circuit.
The Question
Is there some snazzy, nifty little ingenious wiring method I can employ to resolve this or do I have to run an whole new circuit?
Again, thanks for any and all help!
--Fox
[Unnecessary backstory you may safely ignore]
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The outlet was wired (I use this term loosely) by the previous owner by stripping another circuit passing through the room, and wrapping the correct wires around the bare wire. This other circuit was the GFCI going upstairs. The hot wire was bare.
When I first saw this months ago I immediately disconnected this outlet, cut the GFCI where it'd been stripped, made a small bridge for each wire, and put it all inside a box where it'd be safe.
I didn't find out until recently why they'd taken such a reckless route just to put in an outlet until I tried to wire it into the light switch.
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Well, then. This sounds like a good place to start tomorrow. Test the lines. Make sure you are getting voltages you should. Black to white should be 120VAC. Black to ground should be 120VAC. White to ground should be 0. If you get something different, then something is wrong.
Let's start here. It is hard to get your outlet correct if you supply is all messed up.
Sounds like a plan. Thanks for letting me know what I'm supposed to get for each placement of the probes.
I'm at work at the moment, but when I get home I'll grab my tablet and sketch out the diagrams too. I never get everything just as I like it in MsPaint.
Well it's reassuring to know that the way I first wired it was indeed how it should be configured. I'll get the camera this afternoon to give a better idea of what I'm doing, and I'll try to document as much about the line voltages as I can. You guys are already helping, you shouldn't have to guess what's going on. (Well, apart from how the lights in the ceiling are wired. I have to guess at that too, since I can't get to them.)
Let me know if there is anything else I can do that might aid anyone in solving this problem.
If this were true, I assume you would be popping circuit breakers.
If you have unswitched supply at the switch box, then I would expect that you should be able to use this to supply the outlet. I don't believe that rewiring lights is necessary. I don't believe a new circuit to be necessary.
To re-state your setup, you originally (before you started this project) had a switch box with two 14/2 wires. One was supply. The other went to your fixture. You added a third 14/2 wire from the switch box to the outlet. In your switch box, you tied all copper together and all white together. You tied black supply to your outlet black (also feeds switch hot). Black to your fixture remained tied to switch load terminal.
The problem is you have tapped into a swith loop. There is no neutral int he switch box. You can NOT tap your receptacle from this switch box. You have put the receptacle in series with the lights.
Joed: I think I know what you're saying. I was driving home wondering if that would work. I believe myself a fairly intelligent individual, but my mind simply doesn't render abstract concepts such as wiring. I'm researching serial and parallel circuits.
So...I need to run my outlet's black to the white coming back from the lights, then the white from the outlet back to the white of the line in...? Ok, I think I see that, but that sounds horribly unprofessional. Is there a better/safer/stronger way of doing it? I'm thinking a parallel run from the switchbox, ignoring the switch, going to the outlets, then going back to the switch. It'd be more work, but (if that does actually work) it would mean that if the switch loop were to fail, the outlets would still work.
I tried wiring to the outlet, then going off that to the light: screws up the outlet when the light is flicked on and the light never comes on. Basically the reverse of switch to outlet I'd had wired.
Tried line black to outlet black, outlet white to black to switch. White from light to white to line. Basically a serial circuit, I think. Really I tried a bunch of stuff and none of it worked. Rather frustrated at the moment and getting irked at the scenario. I'll give it a rest. If anyone can tell me what I can do to get around this (apart from running a new circuit)
Since you started with two, 14/2 wires in your switch box, I am tending to discount the switchleg theory. Still, I think it possible it would manifest itself with symptons you describe. I would not completely eliminate this from consideration.
At this point, as I understand it, it sounds as if you have done things correct. The only thing that remains unclear to me is whether you confirmed black is hot, white is neutral, copper is ground, and wires go where we think they do.
You have yet to say whether you have actually measured any voltages or resistances. It is easy to confuse supply with load, and it is possible that a previous electrician got the colored wires reversed. It is also possible that our assumptions about each wire are erroneous. If you have not done so, get out your volt meter and start confirming these things. This is really a pretty simple circuit from an electrical standpoint. The only thing that I can conclude is that certain wires are not what they appear.
For tonight, though, have a nice dinner and relax. Deal with it tomorrow. Things will look better in the morning.
Ah, forgot to mention that. I have a line tester that just tells if it's hot. I don't trust that thing anymore. It says everything is hot.
The multimeter gave really strange readings and I'm sure I was doing something wrong. I only got 120 once, and the other times 80 and 70. I don't recall where, I just chalked it up to me doing something wrong.
I wired straight from the switchbox to the outlet itself. Outlet tests OK...but I don't have it in front of me so I can't recall if it can tell me if neutral/hot are reversed. (I think it does)
The 14/2 from the light to the switch is a switch leg. Power comes down the white wire and goes back to the light on the black under control of the switch. At the fixture the power in black wire will be connected to the white wire going to the switch.
This often confuses the heck out of people because they like to see the colours all matched up.
The 14/2 from the light to the switch is a switch leg. Power comes down the white wire and goes back to the light on the black under control of the switch.
I thought, too, that this was a possibility, but thought we confirmed that he STARTED with two cables, and added a third to go to the receptacle. This is why I have remaining doubt about this being a switch leg.
Why is the word POWER convert into a link in the quote?
Actually, there are things one can to to confirm such things. You can remove the fixture and verify numbers of wires coming and going. You can measure voltages here. You can measure resistances.
Even if the fixture is not readily removeable, there are things you can do to verify at least some aspects of the wiring.
Source Wire test
B2W: 120
B2G: 120
W2G: 0
OK!
Switch Wire Test (Neutrals not connected)
SW is the white from the line in (Source)
SB is the black from the line coming in, (source) and going to the switch
LB is the black coming from the switch, going to the Light
LW is the white coming from the light back to the box
SB2SW: 0
SB2G: 120
LB2LW: 76.7
LB2G: 120
SB2LW: 76.7
LB2SW: 0
SW2G: 120
LW2G: 32
Switch Wire Test (Neutrals connected)
W2G or B2G: 120
Above are my notes when testing. I'd actually created a bunch of little images in a number of different wiring scenarios, but I don't think I need to upload them, as I assume those numbers are not the norm. I guess I shouldn't have chalked those strange numbers up to me screwing up.
Am I correct in assuming that somewhere amidst those 4 lights in the ceiling whoever wired them "done messed somethin' up"? Namely, somewhere a ground is touching a hot wire?
If such is the case, and I am unable to access anything but the light bulb (I've not yet figured out how to remove these fixtures without cutting into the drywall) how would I even go about figuring out which light is wired incorrectly? (To minimize drywall repairs afterwards)
Assuming that I am following your nomenclature, we can conclude one thing with near certainty: your wiring is not as you originally understood it to be. All these tests were conducted with the switch box completely opened and the wires exposed, not connected to any other wires (except as noted about "neutrals"), correct?
Check your recessed lights. Is there an inner part (onto which the socket is mounted) that can be removed from the housing (mine are this way). If so, you may be able to get to some of the wiring. I am also assuming you don't have access from above.
Another conclusion that I would reach is that whites are not necessarily neutrals. You have voltages on some of your whites relative to ground. I think we can quit calling these "neutrals".
If you have voltage coming from the wires leading to the fixture, this tends to suggest that there is a power supply to the fixture. Such a condition tends to support the switch leg theory.
Regarding the light fixture, there are a couple of things that come to mind. Did you perform these tests with the light bulb installed? If so, remove it and remeasure the voltages between the LWwhite/LBblack/ground. A light bulb has some resistance to it and can give some interesting readings at times. After removing the light bulbs, does the LB2LW reading go to zero? What happens to the 32V LW2G reading?
Other things we can do is measure resistances. Make sure that the power to the light is off and that there are no voltages anywhere. Make sure the light bulbs are all removed. By probing resistance between two points, there are certain conclusions one can make. Are there any whites (or blacks, for that matter) in the switchbox that have zero resistance relative to ground? Are there any wires of any color that exhibit zero resistance relative to any other conductor (not ground). Does installing light bulbs change any of those readings?
I don't think we can conclude anything is "messed up" quite yet. If a ground touched a hot, you would be tripping circuit breakers. Do you remember how all this was wired originally? If you stated this, I missed it.
My current working theory is that your LW and LB are a switch leg (as originally suggested by joed). I have no theory yet on the purpose of the SB and SW wires.
I'm a bit out of my depth at this point I believe. I'll have to do a bit more research on a "switch leg".
It was originally wired like a normal switch. Black in to switch, out to...the ceiling. I can't get there. White comes back and goes to the white from the source line.
I'll do a bit of testing without lights, and try resistances.
I am confused by your terms for the cables.
First you say the power from the source cable. That looks fine as power from the panel.
Then you talk about the source wire again and the voltages are messed up.
Label them cable 1, 2 & 3. Disconnect everything and measure the voltages between the wires of the cables.
Sorry. Source meaning, coming from the circuit box. I'll get a diagram up before I go any further.
Straight in, before it hits the light, it's normal voltage. It's when I connect it to the switch that it gets all wonky. (Neutrals disconnected)
Though, from what I've come to understand, the white coming back from the lights probably isn't really a neutral line, or something.
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