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Old 04-22-2009, 09:44 AM   #31
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Opinions of Ideal push-in wire connectors


To me this is a similar argument to the plumbing problems using plastic pipe vs. copper. Not too long ago the only fresh water piping a plumber would use was copper- often they would bad mouth anything else. Now after repeated successes with pex, this seems as if it is becoming the new standard in many homes. I'm not saying other flex pipes didn't have their problems which they did, but there is such a thing as progress. I was never a proponent to backstabbed receptacles but enjoy the back wired ones (with screw down clamps). I'm sure over time and refinements the push-in connectors will be accepted by newer electricians- much like newer plumbers installing 4" pvc DWV over oakum and lead sealed cast iron drain lines!

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Old 04-22-2009, 02:38 PM   #32
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Opinions of Ideal push-in wire connectors


Can someone explain to me why the push in substitutes for wire nuts work better than back stab connections for switches and receptacles? I have dissected some of each and the innards looked the same. The wire goes down a plastic channel touches a brass strip on one side connected (bonded) to the rest of the device and a spring strip at an angle coming from the other side of the channel holds the wire supposedly in good contact. (The items were not Ideal brand so maybe that is the difference.)

Now I am not condemning them; I just don't use them myself.
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Old 04-22-2009, 08:39 PM   #33
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Opinions of Ideal push-in wire connectors


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Originally Posted by AllanJ View Post
Can someone explain to me why the push in substitutes for wire nuts work better than back stab connections for switches and receptacles? I have dissected some of each and the innards looked the same. The wire goes down a plastic channel touches a brass strip on one side connected (bonded) to the rest of the device and a spring strip at an angle coing from the other side of the channel holds the wire supposedly in good contact. (The items were not Ideal brand so maybe that is the difference.)

Now I am not condemning them; I just don't use them myself.
Thanks for the drawing. It got me thinking, "Well, just how do these things work?" In the interests of science, I sacrificed one of my Ideals to find out what made it tick. First, I put a piece of 12 gauge wire in one of the slots, then cut off the plastic casing with a dremel and cut-off wheel. Inside is a square made of two pieces of dissimilar metal. It looks like one piece is copper and the other is steel. The pieces are interconnected in such a way that a constant pressure is maintained by the copper piece on the steel piece. When you push a wire into the hole, it slides between the two pieces, thus establishing a connection to the other wires through the copper piece. There aren't any 'springs' of any kind, just passive pressure from one piece of metal on the other under tension from the way it is fabricated and covered with the plastic shell. The device resists 'straight pull' because the copper plate under tension 'digs into' the wire. If you twist the wire, however, it turns the wire into a self-cutting screw, transfers the force as a twisting motion that 'screws the wire' out of the device. Very interesting how it works.

I will post some pictures to illustrate.

First, a side view of the connector before I cut it open. You can clearly see the copper plate under tension, the steel plate (on the right) and the copper wire pinched between them.

Picture two and three show the connector after I cut the plastic shell off. You can see the copper is interlocked with the steel, to keep the copper under constant tension.

Finally, picture four shows the two pieces of metal separated from one another.

All in all a very ingenious device.
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Last edited by Bigplanz; 04-22-2009 at 08:42 PM.
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Old 04-22-2009, 10:30 PM   #34
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Opinions of Ideal push-in wire connectors


Quote:
Originally Posted by AllanJ View Post
Can someone explain to me why the push in substitutes for wire nuts work better than back stab connections for switches and receptacles? I have dissected some of each and the innards looked the same. The wire goes down a plastic channel touches a brass strip on one side connected (bonded) to the rest of the device and a spring strip at an angle coing from the other side of the channel holds the wire supposedly in good contact. (The items were not Ideal brand so maybe that is the difference.)

Now I am not condemning them; I just don't use them myself.
I can only give you my theory, so here it is!
The back stabs on receptacles move around when something is pluggeg and unplugged from the receptacle.
Over time this causes the spring to lose tension.
The wago connectors do not move one the circuit is in place, thus motion=longer, tighter connections.
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Old 06-10-2009, 05:52 PM   #35
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Opinions of Ideal push-in wire connectors


I have been an electrical contractor for 30+ years. For some reason my fellow electricians do not accept change. When I first started, I would hear stories from the old electricians who first saw a wirenut and didn't trust 'em, and wouldn't use those new-fangled things. They would much rather soldier and tape, or crimp and tape the connections. After that, there were electricians around who would only use the 3-M scotch-lok wirenut, because they were the first and only popular wirenut. They wouldn't be caught dead using an Ideal or any other wirenut, although they were an improvement over the Scoth-lok wirenut. The Scoth-lok was a pain to use, and God help you, if you ever had to remove a Scotch-Lok. But they weren't going to change.

I notice this stubborness in electricians when it comes to new and better tools or materials. They don't like 'em. They are going to stick with the old way of doing things.

I have been using exclusively the Ideal In-Sure push-ins on my #12 and smaller solid wire since they first came out, quite a few years ago. They cannot be compared to the stab-in switch or receptacle. Thay are a completely different design. When disconnecting, they will not pull out. They are designed to twist out. They are designed to carry the feed-thru load. I have not had a single call-back, or a single problem with one. Of course you have to know what you're doing. You have to know what you're doing when you install a wirenut as well. I constantly run into problems with wirenuts and loose connections that someone did not install properly.

Ideal push-ins take up less room in a box, they are much quicker, simpler, and safer, especially when working on hot circuits.

I know, I sound like a salesman.
No, I don't work for Ideal.
Remember Ideal sells a lot more wirenuts.
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Old 06-11-2009, 09:42 AM   #36
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Opinions of Ideal push-in wire connectors


I don't use them exclusively but the ideal's and the Wago's are great products and are very easy and convenient to use. I often suggest them to DIYers for their projects due to their ease of use. Wire nuts are great but they're not a guaranteed good connection...Good installation of a conventional wire nut is reliant on good methods that many DIYers (and even the occasional electrician) do not necessarily employ.
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Old 06-12-2009, 12:29 AM   #37
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I think they are crap. I feel like after a tiny bit of oxidization or corrosion or whatever it will be a high resistance connection. Not enough surface contact. I only use them on flouresents since they will probably have the ballast changed in 10 years anyway. I also don't trust wirenuts. I twist every connection with my linemans and use a wire nut to protect it
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Old 06-12-2009, 12:31 AM   #38
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Also I think you guys are nuts for using them on recessed cans. If a connection gives up somebody is opening up sheetrock
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Old 06-12-2009, 11:53 AM   #39
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Opinions of Ideal push-in wire connectors


Jimmy21,

I am not sure why you would need to open up the drywall. All the cans I have worked with are accessible when you remove the bulb and drop the housing. Are there cans that will not allow access?

Rege
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Old 06-12-2009, 05:23 PM   #40
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Also I think you guys are nuts for using them on recessed cans.
Sure are a lot of "nuts" people around then Jimmy...They work just fine. Most cans' makeup boxes have covers on both sides because they can be accessed via removal of the housing.
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Old 06-12-2009, 08:21 PM   #41
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Opinions of Ideal push-in wire connectors


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Also I think you guys are nuts for using them on recessed cans. If a connection gives up somebody is opening up sheetrock
The first time I used 'em was on some remodel cans in my kitchen (they came pre-attached to the leads from Halo). I didn't like the looseness of the wire in the connector, nor the low surface area contact between the conducting parts. I used them because, well, they're easy, and they're only carrying ~40-160W each. If only they made a vampire tap version, we wouldn't even need to strip the insulation!

And if they fail I just need to pop out four clips and I've got easy access to the jbox.

All my other connections I twist with pliers, cut, and then cap only after the physical connection is good. I'm obv. not an electrician, but I've been a computer/network guy all my life and IME a connection that's not physically stable is a connection that's going to cause a problem in the future.

Can't stand old receptacles where the socket has no holding force, either.

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Old 06-12-2009, 11:16 PM   #42
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Opinions of Ideal push-in wire connectors


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Jimmy21,

I am not sure why you would need to open up the drywall. All the cans I have worked with are accessible when you remove the bulb and drop the housing. Are there cans that will not allow access?

Rege
On most of the commercial cans I've used you can get acess. But not on the cheap 5 dollar residential ones I've used. Unless I'm using something. Either way twisted wires with a wire nut is the only way to go.
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Old 06-13-2009, 02:24 AM   #43
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Opinions of Ideal push-in wire connectors


As far for Ideal push on wire connector that verison is very common used in Europe and have not much issue with them as long you done it right.

{ I have quite few used in France so I am famuair with it }

Merci,Marc
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Old 09-01-2012, 02:19 AM   #44
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Opinions of Ideal push-in wire connectors


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For the last 18 months or so I have used nothing but Ideal push-in connectors for wiring connections in J-boxes. They are much easier to install than wire nuts, and, IMO, better for a DIY project in that they are easy to inspect to make sure the wire is installed solidly. I have read up on them, and they use a different connection system than the infamous 'back-stabbed' receptacles. From what I have read, there have been no reports of problems with Ideal connectors. If there is such a report, please post a link because I couldn't find it.

Anyway, one concern that has been raised is that they 'may' not be up to high amp loads. This winter, I ran a 1500W space heater in the basement pretty much 12 hours a day. The circuit was one I ran and connected with Ideals. After the circuit had run for many hours, I opened the J-Box and put a ammeter clamp on the hot wire and got a reading of 14 amps on the circuit. The connectors were cool to the touch and looked exactly the same as the day I had put them in, six months before.

As far as I can tell, these things work as advertised. I know they are rated and approved for connections and are routinely used in new construction residential projects. Please post your opinions on these connectors. Thanks.

Here is a box in my basement with them used for the connections. I used connectors with extra slots so I could add a circuit later.
I just found these during a browsing at Home Depot. The package says you can use them on stranded wire. Some posts say you can't.
I want to use them on #12 Stranded wire. Is this possible and also advisable?

I can see where they will work fine on solid but wonder about stranded but if the stranded wire is twisted really good and #12, looks like it should push into these quite well.

Advise please.

Tom
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Old 09-01-2012, 03:45 AM   #45
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Opinions of Ideal push-in wire connectors


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I just found these during a browsing at Home Depot. The package says you can use them on stranded wire. Some posts say you can't.
I want to use them on #12 Stranded wire. Is this possible and also advisable?

I can see where they will work fine on solid but wonder about stranded but if the stranded wire is twisted really good and #12, looks like it should push into these quite well.

Advise please.

Tom
This thread is from 2009. You would be better off starting a new thread. There have been several threads on this board about these connectors, but none about their use with stranded wire that I am aware of. Personally, I think they are good devices and will definitely continue to use them. I have never used them on stranded wire, but if the manufacturer's instructions say you can then the UL testing has been performed to verify it and they should be fine.

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