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Old 09-21-2008, 05:14 PM   #16
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Old Well Pump- No ground?


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Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
I don't know THWN.

I'd use direct bury, ribbon type, 12/3 with ground and the conduit where it is exposed outside. I'd run it all the way from the switch to the control box to the well and then down to the pump. It is the industry standard for power cable.

If you haven't had the pump running yet, you may find you have a 2 wire pump in the well, or need a new pump. If you go with a 3 wire, you need the correct control box for the hp of the pump.
I don't believe a non-insulated ground wire would be permitted in this application, that's what you would find in the direct burial cable.

THWN = Thermoplastic High Water-resistant Nylon-coated

The "W" is what you look for when the wire will be used in a wet location. I think the OP's idea of running 4 individual wires of THWN in conduit is probably the best, it should be relatively easy to replace in the event it needs to be. Plus, you can customize the colors used in the conduit to match what the pump/control box uses.

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Old 09-21-2008, 05:44 PM   #17
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Old Well Pump- No ground?


Quote:
Originally Posted by theatretch85 View Post
I don't believe a non-insulated ground wire would be permitted in this application, that's what you would find in the direct burial cable.

THWN = Thermoplastic High Water-resistant Nylon-coated

The "W" is what you look for when the wire will be used in a wet location. I think the OP's idea of running 4 individual wires of THWN in conduit is probably the best, it should be relatively easy to replace in the event it needs to be. Plus, you can customize the colors used in the conduit to match what the pump/control box uses.

I personally would install conduit and run well pump wire back to the control box or pressure switch depending on the pump.
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Old 09-21-2008, 06:15 PM   #18
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Old Well Pump- No ground?


I would install conduit as well, further, I like to increase the size of the ground wire considerably, and bond it to the well casing. The reason is because we get a lot of lightning around here, and a well casing is an extremely effective ground rod, and lightning has a tendency to vaporize small wire (and sometimes even big wire!).

This way, if the ground wire gets blown up, it's easy to replace.

Rob

P.S. Wire letters are T=thermoplastic, 60C. Each H increases the temperature rating by 15C. W=water resistant. N=nylon outer jacket.

Thus, THWN is 60C+15C=75C water resistant, nylon jacket.
THHN is 60C+15C+15C=90C, not water resistant, nylon jacket.
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Old 09-21-2008, 06:58 PM   #19
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Old Well Pump- No ground?


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Originally Posted by micromind View Post
I would install conduit as well, further, I like to increase the size of the ground wire considerably, and bond it to the well casing. The reason is because we get a lot of lightning around here, and a well casing is an extremely effective ground rod, and lightning has a tendency to vaporize small wire (and sometimes even big wire!).

This way, if the ground wire gets blown up, it's easy to replace.

Rob


Its actually code to bond the well casing. If your going to use it as a grounding electrode, then it needs to be sized with table 250.66
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Old 09-22-2008, 09:56 PM   #20
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Old Well Pump- No ground?


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Originally Posted by theatretch85 View Post
I don't believe a non-insulated ground wire would be permitted in this application, that's what you would find in the direct burial cable.

THWN = Thermoplastic High Water-resistant Nylon-coated

The "W" is what you look for when the wire will be used in a wet location. I think the OP's idea of running 4 individual wires of THWN in conduit is probably the best, it should be relatively easy to replace in the event it needs to be. Plus, you can customize the colors used in the conduit to match what the pump/control box uses.
None of the 4 wires are bare, all are in direct bury submersible pump power cable meant to be used from the pressure switch all the way to the submersible pump to whatever depth in the well. It is called by the gauge and number of powered conductors with or with a ground conductor; I.E. 12/3 w/ground (4 strand), or without ground (3 strand). It is rated at 600 volts and approved by all codes everywhere and is a flat cable and the well water industry standard. Each conductor and the ground is color coded to industry standard Yellow, Black, Red and Green.

Separate strand wire usually is twisted, or should be, and takes up more space and will chafe against the casing and rock and it is a poor choice for well power cable. And if it isn't twisted, that's worse for chafing. All types of cable must be taped to the drop pipe every 5-10', even if cable guards are used. That assumes you don't want a failed installation in just a few years. Flat ribbon type cable lays flat against the side of the drop pipe and is much quicker to install and tape.
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Old 09-22-2008, 10:04 PM   #21
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Old Well Pump- No ground?


Let me just start by saying I have not worked with any well-pump installations.

All the UF cable I have ever seen have insulated current carrying conductors (ie neutral/hot) but the ground is a bare wire beyond the outer insulation of the UF cable. I have not seen this special well-pump direct burial cable.

However, it would seem there is still the issue of bonding the well casing to the ground wire in that cable. If it runs from the control box all the way to the pump un-broken, how do you tie it into the well casing?

I can see how the flat cable would be better to run down the drop pipe to the pump itself rather than a bundle of individual conductors.
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Old 09-22-2008, 10:13 PM   #22
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Old Well Pump- No ground?


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Originally Posted by theatretch85 View Post

However, it would seem there is still the issue of bonding the well casing to the ground wire in that cable. If it runs from the control box all the way to the pump un-broken, how do you tie it into the well casing?

.
I can only assume that a j-box would be installed at the top of the well casing.

Gary, any links on this UF pump wire? I've only seen/used regular well pump wire.
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Old 09-22-2008, 10:24 PM   #23
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Old Well Pump- No ground?


Quote:
Originally Posted by micromind View Post
I would install conduit as well, further, I like to increase the size of the ground wire considerably, and bond it to the well casing. The reason is because we get a lot of lightning around here, and a well casing is an extremely effective ground rod, and lightning has a tendency to vaporize small wire (and sometimes even big wire!).

This way, if the ground wire gets blown up, it's easy to replace.

Rob

P.S. Wire letters are T=thermoplastic, 60C. Each H increases the temperature rating by 15C. W=water resistant. N=nylon outer jacket.

Thus, THWN is 60C+15C=75C water resistant, nylon jacket.
THHN is 60C+15C+15C=90C, not water resistant, nylon jacket.
If it isn't waterproof you don't want it down a well. The cable I mentioned is waterproof.

He could go to any plumbing or pump supply house and for $20 buy a lightening arrestor that installs in or on his pressure switch instead of a heavier gauge separate ground wire. The arrestors never miss protecting the cable and pump from lightening.

And if he is in a freeze area, the cable will be buried up to 5' deep and to run the cable in conduit is totally unnecessary overkill. Are you doing that type install for your well water customers?
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Old 09-22-2008, 10:41 PM   #24
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Old Well Pump- No ground?


Quote:
Originally Posted by theatretch85 View Post
Let me just start by saying I have not worked with any well-pump installations.

All the UF cable I have ever seen have insulated current carrying conductors (ie neutral/hot) but the ground is a bare wire beyond the outer insulation of the UF cable. I have not seen this special well-pump direct burial cable.
It's not special, it's been used for like 50 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theatretch85 View Post
However, it would seem there is still the issue of bonding the well casing to the ground wire in that cable. If it runs from the control box all the way to the pump un-broken, how do you tie it into the well casing?
You don't use the ground to bond or ground the casing. It is the pump motor ground. The latest (and greatest electrical code) calls for use of the metal casing as a ground electrode for the building's electrical system. There are hundreds of thousands of no ground 2 wire well pumps in existence because they never had a ground. Coming out of the nuclear weapons and electronics fields, I say that kinda proves the motor really doesn't need a ground... but code says ground them now. Same for the metal casing, but now drillers are going to plastic casings. LOL
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Old 09-22-2008, 11:50 PM   #25
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Old Well Pump- No ground?


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Originally Posted by chris75 View Post
I can only assume that a j-box would be installed at the top of the well casing.

Gary, any links on this UF pump wire? I've only seen/used regular well pump wire.
The casing cap is made to allow the cable, and conduit into it and then the cable over the top of the casing where it is cut off with like 10' of extra cable. Then you install the pump, cable and drop pipe down the well and finally connect the two ends with wire nuts and tape them up to be water proof. Or use grease filled nuts.

Here are links to the cable and well installation info.

http://www.grandcanyonpump.com/products/cable.htm
http://www.pumpsofoklahoma.com/Websi...s/p7331-sp.pdf
http://www.campbellmfg.com/products/wellsystem.htm
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Old 09-23-2008, 04:08 PM   #26
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Old Well Pump- No ground?


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Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post

You don't use the ground to bond or ground the casing. It is the pump motor ground.
Actually Gary, thats exactly what you do. \

NEC article 250.112 (M) Metal Well Casings. Where a submersible pump is used in a metal well casing, the well casing shall be bonded to the pump circuit equipment grounding conductor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
The latest (and greatest electrical code) calls for use of the metal casing as a ground electrode for the building's electrical system.

This is only true if the underground pipe going from the well casing to the house was metal.
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Old 09-23-2008, 04:15 PM   #27
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Old Well Pump- No ground?


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Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
There are hundreds of thousands of no ground 2 wire well pumps in existence because they never had a ground. Coming out of the nuclear weapons and electronics fields, I say that kinda proves the motor really doesn't need a ground... but code says ground them now. Same for the metal casing, but now drillers are going to plastic casings. LOL
The reason why pumps and casings are required to be grounded now and not back in the day is safety. Gary, I think you are smart enough to understand that.

The reason it was even required is that pump guys would start the pump up out of the well for testing and guys were getting hurt/killed. So here we are today, and you still argue that its not needed.
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Old 09-23-2008, 11:16 PM   #28
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Old Well Pump- No ground?


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Originally Posted by chris75 View Post
Actually Gary, thats exactly what you do. \

NEC article 250.112 (M) Metal Well Casings. Where a submersible pump is used in a metal well casing, the well casing shall be bonded to the pump circuit equipment grounding conductor.

This is only true if the underground pipe going from the well casing to the house was metal.

The reason why pumps and casings are required to be grounded now and not back in the day is safety. Gary, I think you are smart enough to understand that.

The reason it was even required is that pump guys would start the pump up out of the well for testing and guys were getting hurt/killed. So here we are today, and you still argue that its not needed.
Chris, argue? I made a statement. And why do you feel you have a need to keep talking down to me?

I'm pretty sure you've never worked on a well or submersible pump or you wouldn't be asking about the cable I mentioned.

It's been about 5 years since I read a code, that was just before I stopped well work, but what I recall about the need for 'grounding' to the casing was to provide the building a better ground and the gauge of the wire was stated which was IIRC at least #4 solid copper. So maybe something has been added since then or it wasn't the NEC I read but... The code also calls for the metal water line if this and if that, be used as the buildings ground electrode and yet now you say no grounding of the well casing IF the water line is metal. In a previous thread in another forum when we got into this subject you said the casing and the water in the well wasn't a good enough ground or the right ground. It seems you misstated that.

You go on about the safety, yet I have never heard of any driller or pump guy or plumber etc. being harmed, let alone killed, by running a pump test with the pump out of the well. So show me some evidence if you can; maybe you sparkies are starting to work on wells and got scared? And maybe explain why it took 30-40 years for the deaths and injuries to cause a rewrite of the grounding codes. Also, do you really think drillers and pump guys wouldn't experience or hear of the problem over that time and add the ground themselves since it could kill them? I don't.

I think the reason for the ground pig tail on pumps, and the code, may be that metal casing is on its way out and plastic is replacing it.

But anyway, how is this (two strands) of 12 to 8 gauge stranded ground wire supposed to be attached to the casing in a way that the conductivity will remain intact for decades? If you don't know, the casing is usually 3/16" or 1/4" mild steel that rusts readily in the enclosed humid environment inside the casing under the casing cap. How about on the outside since I'm not sure how you'd attach the ground (two strands remember) inside the round casing that has an ID of only 4"-6" with some being 8"?

Using the power cable out at the casing, to provide a temporary ground I've grounded my circuit breaker for my pump puller machine and any 3 wire pump control box to casings with a 1/4" self tapping metal screw after shinning up the outside of the casing but, without a serious effort, even if painted, it probably would not make a good ground after only a year. So how is this ground supposed to be attached and stay viable?

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