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Old 12-18-2008, 11:11 AM   #16
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Also, the PVC conduit feed on the bottom needs to be fastened to the panel properly with an adapter - not just sticking through a knockout.

What kind of adapter is the white one on the upper right? White is usually plumbing PVC, which if it is can't be used here.

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Old 12-18-2008, 11:26 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by jessccs View Post
The furnace is a Carrier: Mod# 40AQO18330DF Volts 208/240
Ser# F8A 08213 Phase/HZ 1/60
Motor hp 1/8 Motor FLA 1.5
Heater Amps 27 1/30 Min Ampacity 35 8/39 4
Max Overcurrent Protection 40/45

The sub panel is a Square D: #QO6-12L100S Series G4
Type 1 enclosure Single phase
240 V - MAX 50/60 HZ MAINS 100 AMP
The 60AMP breaker in your subpanel is too high for the furnace circuit. You should remove the 60A and replace it with a 45A.

Seeing how this end of the project was done, I'd be worried about the way the imposter electrician hooked up the feed at your main panel.

Do you have a multimeter?
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Old 12-18-2008, 02:31 PM   #18
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Isn't that furnace breaker a 30amp? At least that's what it looks like it says in the picture. That would be undersized for the required ampacity, and a 45amp should be installed as WillisWires says.
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Old 12-18-2008, 02:32 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by williswires View Post
Also, the PVC conduit feed on the bottom needs to be fastened to the panel properly with an adapter - not just sticking through a knockout.
What kind of adapter is the white one on the upper right? White is usually plumbing PVC, which if it is can't be used here.
Definately a few other things such as these that illustrate what a hack this electrician is. It is worse than most amateur DIYer work I inspect.
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Old 12-18-2008, 03:19 PM   #20
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Isn't that furnace breaker a 30amp? At least that's what it looks like it says in the picture.
Hmmm... I think you're right- it does look like a 30A in the picture. I was going by the info in the first post.
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Old 12-18-2008, 05:35 PM   #21
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Woah, looks messy, I'd tighty that up, fix the conduit issue on the bottom and whatever that white thing could be on the upper right, swap the 60 amp furnace breaker out with a 45, put a ground bus in there, bond it to the frame, move the neutral bar insulate it from the panel, move the grounds to the new bus. Check wire guages, tighten connections, check branch circuits.
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Old 12-18-2008, 05:46 PM   #22
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I completely understand now what a noncompliant electrician the person that wired the sub panel was/is, however, I am sure that this forum is not about abasement but rather knowledge sharing. The electrician that did the sub panel wiring did it about 1 1/2 yrs ago and is no longer available. SOoo to the problems:
1- it seems the fitting in the top rt corner of the panel is not correct,
2- the supply line conduit is only run into the box with no fastener
3- the grounding is not correct: ground and common run on common buss
4- the wire size for the furnase is 10/3 w gnd. OK
5- the breaker for the furnace is 30amp OK
6- the wire size feeding the sub panel is 6/3 w gnd OK
7- the breaker in the main panel box for the sub panel feeder is 50 amp OK

My question is ... as a DIY'er what are the obvious steps I need to take to bring this sub panel up to conformity. Every thing has been working for the past 1 1/2 yrs. But NOW, trying to wire the furnace has shown the short cuts or flaws, etc that were taken ... the reason for this thread was to find out why I don't seem to be getting 220 to the furnace and why when my son happend to touch the heating coil he got a good shock.

I am very appreciative of the comments

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Old 12-18-2008, 06:06 PM   #23
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Oh, 10/3? then not a 45, only a 30 max.
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Old 12-18-2008, 07:14 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by jessccs View Post
My question is ... as a DIY'er what are the obvious steps I need to take to bring this sub panel up to conformity. Every thing has been working for the past 1 1/2 yrs.
Everything has been working, but that doesn't mean that it is safe. Actually, quite the opposite...So you're right to want to get it taken care of. The neutral/ground issue is HIGHLY UNSAFE.

Ok, kill the feeder breaker in the main panel to make the subpanel totally safe. Tackle one thing at a time, and don't take it all apart at once. The conduit issues are incorrect, but won't cause a fire or hazard like the neutral or bonding issues could.

I'd focus on getting the neutrals and grounds separated first. Land all the neutrals by themselves on the bar they're on. Land all the grounds on the ground bar on the top left. There's no specific order for the grounds/neutrals, just land them all on their respective bars. Remove the bonding screw I described earlier from the neutral bar and throw it away.

Get the correct size breaker on that furnace (35 minimum according to your posted specs). For the 10/3 wire, as rgsgww said, you're limited to 30 amps. For that circuit, larger wire will be needed or you're asking for a fire.

Wherever possible, correct the workmanship issues with the conduit while you're in there. Appropriate fittings and materials can be bought at any box store or supply house.
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Old 12-18-2008, 08:41 PM   #25
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You have run a 120/240 branch circuit to the furnace. The specs posted do not show a need for this. But you say the furnace had a 4 wire Pigtail?? If only 240 volts is required for the furnace. No neutral is needed. So where is the neutral connected to at the furnace?? MY guess is you have a miswire at the furnace with only 120 volts getting to the heating element...

You need a 8 awg copper cable (8/2 with ground no neutral if only 240 volts) for the furnace branch circuit. 10 awg cable (romax, SER etc..) is only good for 30 amps and 30 amp breaker. The heater is a continuous load so the branch circuit must be 125% of the continuous load plus any additional load like the fan. So 1.25 x 27 plus 1.5 = 35 amps minimum branch circuit ampacity. 8 awg copper required. Put this on a 40 amp breaker.

Can you get us a picture posted for the furnace terminal block or the wiring diagram??

Your subpanel is a mess as mentioned. The bonding screw for that type panel is installed in the slot above the screw that looks like a rivet next to the neutral lug. It appears to be not installed...leave it that way. Move all the grounds (bares) to the ground bar in the upper left of the panel. Leave all the whites in individual terminations on the neutral bar.

Then of course all the other stuff mentioned.

Last edited by Stubbie; 12-18-2008 at 08:48 PM.
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Old 12-18-2008, 09:19 PM   #26
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Thank you all so much .. I will get on this first thing tomorrow .. I will post a picture of the furnace terminals, etc.

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Old 12-19-2008, 09:17 AM   #27
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Jessccs - Your posts didn't say you only used 10AWG to the furnace, or I wouldn't have suggested the 45A breaker. You only mentioned that the furnace had #10 pigtails...my fault for assuming...

I agree with stubbie - there might be a miswire at your furnace.

I notice that in your wiring diagram, Figure 7, one incoming line L1 ends up being connected to a BLACK, PURPLE, and another BLACK wire. The second line L2 ends up being connected to a BLACK and a RED wire.

If the neutral wasn't used (it shouldn't have been) and you did in fact use the two hots, you probably have the two hots connected to the furnace using wirenuts. And since you say there is a pigtail, it is possible that they are miswired - if, for example, it was hooked up with all the blacks on one line, that is incorrect for your furnace.
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Old 12-20-2008, 11:32 PM   #28
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Iwould like to thank all of you for your input .. I followed your instructions and I am proud to say everything works like it should. Made the necessary changes you all suggested

I must say " I am not smarter than a seasoned electrician" !!!!

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Old 12-21-2008, 12:09 AM   #29
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Glad to hear it. If you feel like it post a pic of the changes just to be safe.
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Old 12-21-2008, 06:02 PM   #30
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Glad to hear it! I second the pic request, and tell us what made your furnace get hot...

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