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jessccs 12-17-2008 01:57 PM

Old newbee here
 
:wheelchair: I am a member of the woodworking forum, and, have been in woodworking one way or another since 1958 and feel confident in my abilities in other areas as well ..

WITH EXCEPTION of electricity !!! My question: I had a sub panel installed by an electrician, a Square D Qo 60 amp box. The guy ran the wire from my main panel (aprox 70') with the correct wire, to the sub panel. When he hooked the wire from source to the lugs he placed red on 1 lug, blk on 2 lug and the ground to the buss for common. He did not run a ground wire to the grounding buss. There is no mains in the sub panel. He connected my outlets and lights using 15amp and 20 amp breakers by running the black line to the breaker, and the white wire and the bare grnd wire to the common buss. He did not run any wires to the grounding buss (it has no wires running to it)

Every thing has been working OK. BUT .. I decided to hang a small electric furnace in my shop .. My son hung the furnace which had a #10 ga. 4 wire pigtail for power. (this furnace is on a thermostat) NOW... when my son ran the wires from the furnace to the sub panel he used a 60amp breaker ... he ran the red wire to one side of the breaker and the blk to the other side .. he then ran the white common wire AND the bare ground wire to the common buss. The furnace would kick on and fan ran OK ... just very little heat from the coils. ALSO my son, standing on a ladder happened to touch the coils on the furnace (not heated yet) and got a good shock :eek:. Wish i knew how to diagram out on her what has been done. Should the grounding buss in the sub panel be used in some manner? Should all the common wires AND the bare grnd wires be tied to the common buss? Sorry to be so long winded .. any help will be appreciated .. We are in the boonies of MO., no inspections>

Thank you

Jessccs

Termite 12-17-2008 02:22 PM

A picture of the inside of the subpanel would sure make this more clear.

Simply stated, in the subpanel, the grounds and neutrals must be isolated from each other. There should be a neutral bar, a ground bar, and no bonding bridle/green bonding screw. If there are neutrals and grounds under the same lugs or on the same bar as each other, that ain't good. There doesn't have to be a main shutoff on the subpanel...It can be shut off at the feeder breaker in your main panel.

Billy_Bob 12-17-2008 02:52 PM

What is the brand/model of the electric furnace?

Is it an electric furnace, or a small wall mounted - say 1 ft. x 1 ft. heater with fan and a dial on the front?

Did you wire the thermostat separately? Or came pre-wired with the unit?

Some of the smaller units just turn off power to one hot wire I think. So if the breaker was on and the thermostat off, it is possible that there was still power there from one hot connection.

Did the instructions say to turn off power before working on the unit?

jessccs 12-17-2008 04:42 PM

3 Attachment(s)
Thank you so much for you're replies ...

The furnace is a Carrier: Mod# 40AQO18330DF Volts 208/240
Ser# F8A 08213 Phase/HZ 1/60
Motor hp 1/8 Motor FLA 1.5
Heater Amps 27 1/30 Min Ampacity 35 8/39 4
Max Overcurrent Protection 40/45

The sub panel is a Square D: #QO6-12L100S Series G4
Type 1 enclosure Single phase
240 V - MAX 50/60 HZ MAINS 100 AMP

jerryh3 12-17-2008 05:27 PM

An electrician did this? I'm going to guess that this was not inspected. Who wired the branch circuits? Someone tell me again why people hire professionals...

Billy_Bob 12-17-2008 05:33 PM

Well I found the following when searching for Carrier 40AQ

http://xpedio.carrier.com/idc/groups.../40aq-4p~2.pdf

Billy_Bob 12-17-2008 06:04 PM

I found a document with schematic diagrams for many different models. I don't have time to hunt through these to find your specific model, but at least some of the similar models manufactured seem to switch just one hot connection.

This leaves the other hot connection always connected to the heater coil and if you touch it, you will get zapped!

So basically turn off the breaker before working on the unit.

http://xpedio.carrier.com/idc/groups...it/40aq-1w.pdf

Wethead 12-17-2008 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jerryh3 (Post 199419)
An electrician did this? I'm going to guess that this was not inspected. Who wired the branch circuits? Someone tell me again why people hire professionals...

I was just thinking that, then I re read the OP and he says

Quote:

Originally Posted by jessccs;1
[FONT=Century Gothic
WITH EXCEPTION of electricity !!! My question: I had a sub panel installed by an electrician, [/font]

Jessccs

Ummm.......NA he couldn't have been a LICENSED one,........could he have been and if he was WOW .....CALL HIS ARSE back to fix that rats nest my gwad.....

As for the repairs , I think the other guy posted the link :)

Sorry to hear you had this trouble, what a shame that people do sloppy work like this......

jessccs 12-17-2008 07:04 PM

The same licened electrican that wired the sub panel wired the outlets and lights.

Termite 12-17-2008 07:57 PM

Jessccs,
Let me assure you that there are some problems here, and it is not safe. The electrician that wired that is nothing short of incompetent, and should not be brought back to fix it. If he was an employee of an electrical contractor, call and speak to his supervisor and request that someone with a master's license come and fix the work FOR FREE, and pull the required permit.

There should have been a permit and an inspection for work of this nature, and any competent inspector would have noted the issues.

I think I see a bonding screw on the right side of the neutral bar.:no: There are grounds landed on the same bar as neutrals.:no: Neutrals can't be double lugged with anything.:no: Lord knows if the feeder wires are sized correctly for the ampacity of the breaker that feeds it. Can't see enough detail, but can assure you that this needs immediate attention from a qualified person.

Termite 12-17-2008 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jessccs (Post 199470)
The same licened electrican that wired the sub panel wired the outlets and lights.

Based on that statement, I'd suggest checking the receptacles and lights out as well. I'm sure you paid good money for the work...Better make sure it was done right and SAFE. Just because the lights and outlets work doesn't mean they're correct or safe.

jessccs 12-17-2008 08:21 PM

I'm going to try to correct this myself, I need heat in my shop, it's 13 deg. here. So any advice will be appreciated. Should not the bare ground wire from the feed be attached to the grounding buss? he has the common and the ground wire connected to the common buss. My son wired the pigtail from the furnace the same way the other guy wired all the branches, etc. son wired red on one side of 60ap breaker and blk to the other side and then wired the common and the ground wire to the common buss.

Shouldn't the supply line that powers the sub panel have the bare wire going to the ground buss and then all the branch ground wires attached to that ground buss

Termite 12-17-2008 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jessccs (Post 199496)
Shouldn't the supply line that powers the sub panel have the bare wire going to the ground buss and then all the branch ground wires attached to that ground buss

Correct. Be sure to kill the feed breaker. What size is the feed breaker in the main panel? What size is the feeder wire from the main panel? Lets make sure that wire isn't too small.

Also, remove that bonding screw in the neutral bar...The one that's threaded down into the panel's jacket (they're normally green, but not always).

jessccs 12-17-2008 08:50 PM

there is a 50 amp breaker in the main service panel with a 6/3 with ground feeding the sub panel.

Termite 12-18-2008 08:35 AM

#6 is fine for 50 amps.


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