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Old 10-08-2007, 03:34 PM   #16
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Old House - no junction box - HELP!


Hold on just a minute, there.......

300.15 Boxes, Conduit Bodies, or Fittings —Where Required.
A box shall be installed at each outlet and switch
point for concealed knob and tube wiring.
Fittings and connectors shall be used only with the specific
wiring methods for which they are designed and listed.
Where the wiring method is conduit, tubing, Type AC
cable, Type MC cable, Type MI cable, non-metallic sheathed
cable, or other cables, a box or conduit body shall be installed
at each conductor splice point, outlet point, switch point, junction
point, termination point, or pull point,


Last edited by DuncanB; 10-08-2007 at 03:44 PM. Reason: Underlining
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Old 10-08-2007, 10:47 PM   #17
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Old House - no junction box - HELP!


Working on old homes can be a pain in the a$$. If in fact the existing wires feeding the existing fixtures are Knob & Tube, then you could use the hardware that was approved for that purpose.(more later) If the wires are not knob and tube, then a JB is required (to meet code).
The real issue is, what is the question? Do you want to do it right and proper? Then install a JB or pancake. If you just want the light to come on when you flip the switch, hell all you need is some electric tape to make the connection. It will work but it will not be correct. Now that won't mean a darn thing as long as there are no other problems. But should you suffer an insurance loss and they send in an inspector, well what you saved on the Junction box will not begin to compare to the loss that the insurance company will not cover.

For Knob and tube, they use to use / install what was called a crow's foot. It has three legs to secure to the wall and it had a threaded hub that would accept a nipple which was used to mount the fixture and the wires came up and out through the nipple to the fixture.

Finding these adapters may not be easy. I would look at antique shops that sell old fixtures or find an old timer like me that carry them on their truck.
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Old 10-08-2007, 10:57 PM   #18
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Old House - no junction box - HELP!


What would be so hard about using a cut-in fixture box. It would provide a mounting surface for your fixtures as well as a J/B. If you don't know what a cut-in box is..its a box that attaches to the surface of the plaster using three little ears that you tighten with a screwdriver. You wouldn't need to cut a big enough hole to attach a box to the stud...Only as big as the diameter of the box.
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Old 10-09-2007, 08:19 AM   #19
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Old House - no junction box - HELP!


Thanks for all your input!
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Old 10-10-2007, 09:01 PM   #20
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Old House - no junction box - HELP!


are these fixtures going to be new or antique?
If they're new you won't have a worry, the new fixtures will cover the boxes and will come with the mounting hardware.
Antique, pot luck.
I'm sure there is a rosette you could purchase but that will not satisfy the code.
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Old 10-10-2007, 09:43 PM   #21
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Old House - no junction box - HELP!


Quote:
But should you suffer an insurance loss and they send in an inspector, well what you saved on the Junction box will not begin to compare to the loss that the insurance company will not cover.
I wish everyone would quit telling people that, because it's not true. Insurance will cover any loss even if it was installed incorrectly...UNLESS...the laws in your state prohibit a homeowner from doing his/her own electrical work.

I know that wasn't the point of this thread, but it really annoys me when someone says "better watch out, if the insurance company finds out you did it that way, they won't pay" because it's not so.

Unless you're replacing the wiring itself, I wouldn't think the new code would apply to you. Would it be a good idea to add a box?...maybe. Would it be a terrible thing to NOT add one?...not really.
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Old 10-11-2007, 02:18 PM   #22
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Old House - no junction box - HELP!


Designman....Use the same method for mounting the fixture as before. I just wanted to make sure you brought the cable into the fixture body to make the connections.
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Old 10-11-2007, 04:58 PM   #23
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Old House - no junction box - HELP!


Quote:
i really don't want to spend more money..
Spend the money on smoke detectors and insurance.



It's not about money, it's about time and the proper tools to do it right.

A plastic cut in box costs about 3 bucks but it is tricky to cut the wood lathe and plaster cleanly without a rotozip.

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